Speeding, and other traffic fines in Italy
PLEASE READ THIS:
I would like to underline that I do not suggest or condone the non-payment of fines. If I did, I would probably end up in big trouble here, and seeing as I live, work and have family here, I would like to avoid such a situation. If, by chance, someone has read this post, the comments and then decided not to pay, then do not blame me if you end up with problems as a result. Any and all advice I have provided to others has been and is provided informally – I am not an authority, and have not made any claim to be. For conclusive advice on the payment of traffic fines received as a result of a trip abroad, I recommend contacting motoring organisations, embassies or the police in your country of origin.
Sorry about the legalish stuff, but I thought covering my back may not be such a bad idea. You never know nowadays and this blog is public (Indeed, I have now been lucky enough to have been accused of being a scammer, I am not, but see the comments below and make up your own mind.) Now you can read the main post.. and the comments!
Speeding, and other traffic fines in Italy
I had a contact via this blog from some people (And I hope they don’t mind my mentioning this situation, but I do think it needs mentioning) who have, in a sense, come face to face with the black side of European unity, in that these people found an Italian speeding fine, written in Italian, lying on their English doormat after the postman had done his thing.
John Folkard, one of the many who have been caught out by the restricted traffic zone in Piza, posted something about the problem on the travel tips message boards of the UK newspaper the Daily Telegraph.
Check out my updates to this post, but please do try to read everything and the comments, yes, I know there are lots of them:
- SEE ALL PAGES FOR UPDATES and YET ANOTHER UPDATE, May 2007, for more info on Pisa, and
- look at One more update – 18/09/2007, for some potentially interesting info.
20th May 2007: SUGGESTION: If you wish, you can tell me where (Place, street, time, date) you got your fine and I will add it to the Platial Map system. I’d also like to post photos of the restricted traffic zone signs to help others avoid falling into the same trap.
Have a look at this more recent post: Speed Cameras in Italy
It will help you to know what you need to look out for and where the cameras are.
Although, regretfully, it may be too late for many who arrive here, I’ve also written a post entitled:
How to Avoid Fines while Staying in Italy
I’ll try to keep both posts up to date, so check back here from time to time.
18/09/2007 update –
Time Limits – this is confusing
OK, I’ve had a look into this time limits thing a bit more and from what I can make out from the Italian Automobile Club site here.
There is indeed, as Sean commented below, a time limit of 150 days for the notification of the fine, if the individual committing the violation is resident in Italy.
This limit extends to 360 days for individuals committing violations who are not resident in Italy, however, these time limits run from as soon as the actual offender has been identified:
The Italian Law on Time Limits
In Italian from the Italian Automobile Club site: La Corte Costituzionale, con sentenza 198/1996, ha stabilito che il termine dei 150 giorni, nel caso in cui l’identificazione dell’effettivo trasgressore avvenga successivamente rispetto al momento in cui la violazione è stata commessa, decorre dalla data in cui l’autorità è in grado di identificarlo. -
My translation: Decision 198/1996 of the Constitutional Court established that the 150 (360 days – for non-Italian residents) day period in situations in which the identification of the actual offender is subsequent to the moment in which the violation occurred shall run from the date the authority is able to identify such offender.
———————–
It appears that the 360 day period starts running from as soon as the police have been advised by the car rental company, friend, etc, who was driving the car at the time of the offence.
This means, presumably, that the police must then send you a fine within this 360 day period, otherwise it is no longer valid.
Note: the car rental company, friend etc have 60 days to advise the police that they were not driving the vehicle at the time of the offence.
My understanding (I am not a lawyer):
- If you have directly received a fine notification which is in your name, you need to know when the rental company got round to telling the police who you are – then you add 360 days to this date – so you can check by when the police should have sent you the fine.
- If it clearly turns out that more than 360 days has passed, you probably do not have to pay.
In summary:
If the offence is committed by someone using a car that is registered in Italy, the police then have 150 days to notify the car owner.
Car owner then has 60 days to tell the police that the driver was foreign and to supply details of the driver.
The police have 360 days to send the fine to the offending driver.
What Could Happen:
- Let’s assume that the fine arrives at the hire company (or car owner) after 149 days (in time under Italian law)
- Next, the car owner tells the police that the driver who committed the offence was foreign after 59 days. (208 days have passed since the fine arrived)
- The police then send out a fine to the foreign driver that arrives after 359 days. (360 day limit when driver is foreign)
This means that the total time elapsed from the offence to the fine arriving in another country is 149 + 59 + 359 which equals 567 days.
The driver then has 60 days to either pay or dispute the fine or the amount of the fine increases.
What remains unclear is how the Italian police/authorities can prove that they notified you within the 360 time limit. Registered post may be one option, and if you receive a fine by normal post, then you could, in theory and I am not saying that you should do this, simply throw it away and deny any knowledge of it. Things certainly get lost in the post here in Italy – I can attest to this.
If anyone would like to corroborate my interpretation, then please do. I have tried to wade though the Italian law on this, but did not manage to find all the relevant sections, subsections, commas, and/or subsequent modifications to same. Sorry. But you can have a look here to start with, if you can read Italian:
Article 201 – Notification of Violations.
20/02/2008 UPDATE to time limits
Thanks to information provided by Rusty via his comments, it appears as though the Italian authorities have two years to collect fines, but I don’t know if the two year period starts when the fine arrives, or when someone fails to pay the fine within the 60 day pay/up or dispute period.
In simple terms:
- You receive a fine notification via registered mail.
- You do nothing.
- The Italian police do nothing.
- Two years pass – you no longer have to pay the fine.
Whether you decide to sit this two year period out and see what happens, is up to you, but those in the European Union should perhaps watch out for reciprocal fine collection agreements.
Anyway, if this happens to someone, and they come to Italy after two years, they do not have to worry.
If I come across any more information, I’ll post it here. Sorry I did not cotton on to this before, but, as I now have to point out – I am not an expert on this. If you know someone who is, please, oh, please let me know, and I mention this expert here.
29/09/2007 UPDATE:
This issue has been discussed on several forums:
- Here: Virtual Tourist
- And here: Trip Advisor
- Here, in another language: Euro Travel
- Life in Italy’s forum has also considered this issue: Life in Italy
If you come across any more, let me know.
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Ciao!
Just thought I’ll drop a comment on your mention of Hungary… how is this coming here?
Anyway, your blog is a nice read, I’ve already picked up a couple of very good infos, thanks!
Gabor
Ciao back Gabor!
I did not want to offend Hungarians – it’s just that I know someone here in Italy who is Hungarian and despite her efforts I could not even manage to pronounce Hungarian words, let alone read them. This is why Hungary came to mind. If I got a fine in written in Hungarian I would probably not understand that it was a fine!
Anyway great to hear that I have a Hungarian reader:-)
Alex
I recieved a fine yesterday from municipal police, apparently they want me to pay 110Euros for going through a restricted zone in PISA. How on earth do I pay this fine, my chequebook is only in english…
Some have said just ignore it… what do i do?
Hi Stuart,
Yes, you could ignore the fine, but, as they say, ‘they know where you live’ and if the reciprocal agreement comes into force next year, you may find that a new and larger fine will appear on your doorstep, so, why don’t you try phoning the number I mentioned in this blog entry 0044 8702400009 – it’s the DVLA, and see what they can tell you. And please let me know how you get on so I can add something to the blog entry to help everyone else who gets into this slightly sticky situation.
Good luck.
Regards,
Alex
Stuart, I recevied the exact same thing today from the Municipal Police in Pisa for driving in a restricted zone and have to pay €110. How did you do it? We were lost and didn’t even know we were in a restricted zone thanks to those great italian road signs!.
Is this a scam?
I’ve had a request for Euro 99.4 for restricted zone (which we too didn’t notice) in Pisa and they want paying by bank transfer which will double the cost!
Bizarrely – I had just received a letter today from the Municipal Police in Pisa for driving in a restricted zone – same 110 Euro fine! I really didn’t see anything indicating that there was a fine-able zone anywhere. I rang the number on the form and a guy was able to tell me that I’d entered a resident-only area.
Sounds a bit of a scam, really… OK I can’t play the innocent abroad, but it wasn’t obvious. Clearly – if on the same thread there are another couple of people with exactly the same ‘offence’ with the same fine!
To Peter – as you know we have already corresponded about this and, hopefully, gone some way towards sorting it out.
To Stu – It does sound as though you are yet another victim of the often confusing and downright complex Italian road signs. I don’t know Pisa, but it looks as though it has even more confusing and complex signs than usual. Not knowing the lingo does not help either, but there is not a lot anyone can do about this.
Add to the list two couples from California fined by mail 110,4 Euros for driving in a restricted zone. Okay. It was at night. We were lost. Had we been able to determine that there are restricted zones we would happily avoid them. My local banker cannot decipher what portion of “IT 04 X 06200 14021 000002257243″ is the account number. I will try to get clarification by Fax or email. It allows somebody to translate my question and translate a reply. I am thinking that Comune Di Pisa is not motivated to post their restricted zones too prominantly.
We had an absolutely wonderful experience in April. A beautiful place to visit.
I admit that I am a wus. I will not ever set foot in Pisa, but would like to make a good faith effort to resolve the issue. And I have answered by own stupid question. There is a website that decodes international bank numbers (IBANs). It is http://www.xe.com/idt/
ISO country code: IT
IBAN check digits 04
Bank Code 06200
Branch Code 14021
Account number 000002257243
Transit number 06200 14021
Score one for the Comune Di Pisa Score zero for the gullible and obliging American tourist.
Cheers Alex. It’s obviously not well signed considering how many people have been caught out in Pisa! Oddly I didn’t remember seeing it in any guide books either.
Perhaps an EU-wide traffic symbol for ‘congestion charge’ or similar would be a better idea.
Stu
Hi Stu – “an EU-wide traffic symbol for ‘congestion charge’ or similar….” – sounds like a great idea!
Lobby your local MEP!
Alex
Hi All
I got the 110,4 Euro fine for “circulating in restricted traffic zone without authorisation” today. it also states that “the road conditions were such that the offender could not be stopped without causing danger to other vehicles”. I think that this have a faul smell of con men. Do any of you confirmed this or vice versa, that it is an actual fine sendt out by the police??
Regards
Trond
Hey,
I also got the 110,4 Euro fine for eaxactly same reasons, place, banking details as Loren/Trond.
I was also concerned this was a con, so if anyone knows it’s legitimate – please let us know. I was going to pay and get it over with, but given that I have exactly the same banking details as Loren – how will they know that “I” have paid the fine? There is nothing that would allow them to cross-references one of the many E110,4 deposits in their bank account back to ‘my’ fine???
Eddie
I just wanted to say that the bank details posted by Loren match those of someone else who got a fine as a result of driving in Pisa. This is something I have checked out with the authorities in Pisa, for whom fines are collected by an company called SEPI SpA which was formed by Pisa Council specifically for the purpose of collecting monies owed to Pisa Council. (http://www.sepi-pisa.it/) Mention of SEPI is also made, in Italian, on the main Pisa municipal police site – so Italians can pay their fines. (http://www.comune.pisa.it/polizia/doc/infrazioni.htm)
As a rule of thumb, if the fine you have has details which match Loren’s and has an email address at the top something like this “…….@sepi-pisa.it”, then I think you can be pretty sure that the fine is genuine.
Hope that helps,
Alex
I just phoned Ufficio informazioni and spoke to a nice man who tried to guide me to a website where I could pay my fine over the internet. Unfortunately my webserver couldn’t find it but he also suggested paying by postal order.Quote your fine number which is the number followed by /2006 on the top left of your notice, plus the licence number of your car. This is given on the notice preceded by the word “targa”. I got charged 157 euros for unwittingly going 5km over the speed limit when I was lost and being led everywhere by sat nav!
It’s all very iffy isn’t it.
So there are a number of us.. all having fallen foul of the non-helpful congestion charge system from the same city in Italy (I only searched on ‘Italy traffic fines’ and came across this site…) – where it’s not simple to pay, and where each person has received a note through the post asking them to pay.
How much credibility is there to saying, I just don’t *know* if it’s a con or not? There’s nothing with an ‘EU’ marking on it? There’s nothing to say that we’re not being scammed by a ‘mail phishing’ equivalent, because someone read our registration plate?
OK this sounds a bit conspiracy theory-ish… but given the poor signage – and given the number of correspondents here, it demonstrates that it must be poor…? What happens if we *don’t* pay?
Stu,
I sort of agree with you, but I have spoken to someone working for the collection agency down in Pisa. I deliberately did not provide all the information about the offence, but I was given the missing details correctly . Now, I could be very wrong, but I would not expect scammers to set up a phone line, a website, be able to get full details of cars and those in them on a particular day etc. However, I would like to know how many people driving hire cars got fines, where they were in hire the cars and possibly in which hotel they were staying. I shall look at and compare all the copies people have sent to me again to see if there is anything strange. I could even check with the police in the area to ensure that all is OK.
I’ll let you know how I get on.
As for not paying – this is an option, but if these fine are genuine, as I believe they are, you could risk getting a larger follow up fine. I think that the main consequence of not paying may only become evident when you come to Italy again – in that you may be arrested or something like that.
Seeing as there are now quite a number of ‘offenders’ now, I’ll look into this more closely.
Watch this space.
UPDATE
I spoke to Pisa Municipal police and was informed that from within the Pisa Council site it is possible to confirm whether a fine exists and even see the photo taken. Only I’m not sure whereabouts in the site you need to go and you may need to register, although not much info is required.
This is where you can register, I believe as a ‘Persone Fisiche’ – yes, it is all in Italian, go to: https://www.e.pisa.it – then click on ‘Nuovo Utente’ and then ‘Persone Fisiche’ and fill in your details, although the Codice Fiscale obligatory section may cause problems because you would need to get one first………. No, this ain’t simple.
I could help someone with the registration process if they wish.
I also asked the Police if they were aware of any con and they said that they were not.
With regard to the fine documents, I have two copies and both concern different hire cars from different hire companies. The places of residence given are different too. I would say that these documents are genuine, but being able to check via the Pisa council site would be better.
Hmm. I’m considering going to Italy again at some point – though the experience has left me with a rather unpleasant taste! I really would *not* have gone into the charge zone if I’d have known, and had all this hassle! Lesson to learn that you run such risks if you don’t understand the language, but I’d argue that since we’ve all been EU members for a long time, signage which is a bit more graphical/multicultural/pan-euro-language-friendly should be used!
Thanks Alex for passing on the info though. I couldn’t get the website to work – I’m guessing there’s an ID somewhere in your link that stops it working. I’ll look through the pisa website though.
hey, traveling to Italy used to be fun BECAUSE YOU COULD drive on opposite direction in one way streets, drive on sidewalks, do crazy things, park in double and triple row. But the italians have complex of inferiority towards the germans or other rule-loving strict northern europeans and want to imitate them, and now the fun of driving in italy is over.
Well, Sherpes, I suppose that is one way of looking at Italy’s tightening up of the enforcement of traffic offences! I guess you will have to find other countries that are fun to drive in now.
I would quite like to know just how many Italians, as opposed to non-Italians actually pay these fines…. Although, a few years back a new system was introduced whereby if you did not pay a fine you ran the risk of having your car taken away from you. This would have certainly encouraged more people to pay up, I’m sure.
Stu M – sorry the enormous link would not, er, link. You could go to the Pisa council site and wander around until you come upon the right section, I suppose, but we are back to the old ‘knowing Italian’ thing. I imagine that at some point Pisa and many others will get round to providing English language and other language versions of their site on air. In the meantime though, these international fines are going to continue to cause headaches for some time to come, I feel.
I seem to have had the same experience as others. I was actually in Bologna, but the situation was the same – it was the first day of my holiday, I was getting used to the hire car and Italian roads, I got lost, and I didn’t notice the restricted zone.
All the documentation looks genuine and I can believe I did (unintentionally) commit the offence, but: It took 5 months for the fine to land on my doormat, and the fine is 80 euros but the hire car company have added a 60 euro admin charge. I am not happy about either of these things – does anyone know if I have grounds for complaint on these?
As regards paying, the hire car company kept my credit card details and apparantly I signed something at the time to say they could recover costs such as this after the event. However, I’ve spoken to my credit card company and they say they weren’t authorised to keep my details or take a payment at a later date. So far no payment has been taken but if anything is my credit card company will help me. Does anyone know anything about this?
Many thanks for your help, and good luck to others in the same situation,
Richard
Richard – sorry to hear you are yet another to have been caught out – at least this time it was not the infamous Pisa no traffic zone.
Anyway, the 60 Euro admin charge sounds a bit steep. Most of the fines I have seen have come via the local traffic police, whereas it sounds as though yours have been ‘dressed up’ a little by the hire company. This should not have been necessary – they should have taken enough info for you to have got the fine at your house, minus any extra admin charges, at least that seems to have been what usually happens – Bologna could be different though. Maybe the hire company have already settled the fine; in which case you should be required to refund them with the 80 Euros + 1 Euro or so that the local post office charges for processing things like this.
Alex – thanks for your response.
Yeah, if I end up paying the fine, it won’t be too hard to swallow, but I’m keen to avoid the admin charge. That said, I spoke to a friend who used to work for a hire car company and she said they have teams of people to deal with drivers’ fines and this is how they pay for them, so if I end up paying that maybe I won’t feel too bad.
I guess I’m feeling philosophical about it all now!
Very interesting.
I have received two of these Pisa letters with fines for driving where we shouldn’t have. Both were the same night when my wife and I were desperately trying to find a hotel and fell foul of this Pisa zone thing. The letters were by registered post and the fines totalled about 200 euros, which was more than the cost of the car hire.
My wife wrote back to the Pisa authorities appologising for our ignorance but saying we wouldn’t pay as we were totally unaware of the restrictions.
We are going to Rome on Sunday for a few days and will discover whether I am going to be arrested for non payment as the hirer of the car.
Nick,
I would not worry too much about being arrested. Although I imagine you’ll see this reply when you get back from Rome. However, if you book into a hotel again in Pisa, then you may possibly get a visit from the local police – but things move quite slowly here, so I would not lose too much sleep over this. There is more chance of you being visited by the police if you end up back in Pisa some five years down the line, but which time someone may have updated and cross referenced some database.
The Pisa thing is a little odd, as I understand it up here in Milan foreign cars can enter the city centre. It’s a sort of catch 22 situation down in Pisa possibly – you may be able to drive into the centre if you are booked into a hotel there, but obviously to get to a hotel and book it you may need to drive into the centre. You may be able to use the hotel booking as a way to get off one of the fines you got. You could have a go at writing to them – in English, which would only be right seeing as they send the things out in English.
Good luck,
Alex
Thanks Alex,
We have returned without being arrested!
On the night in question we were driving a hire-car and didn’t manage to find a hotel room in Pisa as there was a conference using all the rooms in the town – hence all the driving around. We ended up staying out by the coast in an ancient hotel with those tea-towel style towels! (Am I supposed to be drying the pots with these?)
The letters from Pisa each came with an attached registered postcard – presumably these should have been returned by Royal Mail as proof that we had received the letters? So if we hadn’t written a reply, our receipt of the letters would not have been known.
Ciao
Ciao Nick,
Glad to hear that you had no arresting experiences whilst over here!
As for the postcards, I’m not sure what you were supposed to have done with them. In any event, I doubt whether the Pisa authorities would go to the trouble of seeking an European arrest warrant just because a fine has not been paid – but you never know. With regard to your reply, honesty is the best policy, but……….!
All the best,
Alex
I also have received a notification of contravention, stating that i was circulating in restricted traffic zone without authorisation in pisa.
They also state that the road conditions were such that the offender could not be stopped without causing danger to other vheicles. Alex has mentioned that a a photo was taken and proof of a fine can be checked.
My question would be why would they say (offender could not be stopped without causing danger to other vheicles) when the offence was recorder by a camera and if the have photgraphic evidence why is this not attached to the fine as proof.
I did not sign for this letter so thay have no proof of me actually receiving the Notification, So how would that stand up in a court of law.
Not paying them is my answer to there poor signs and no photo proof.
I have just received exactly the same sort of notification from Pisa this morning – unfortunately I signed for it before realising what it was. My ‘offence’ was allegedly committed while I was in Pisa in June 2006 so nearly 10 months ago! Oddly, I also received a fine notification in October last year which was paid by Hertz using my credit card details. As it was only 18 euros I didn’t pursue it, but when I look at the paperwork again, the date and time of the offence is exactly the same as this latest fine down to the minute (24/6/06 14:33)! However, the bank and IBAN codes are different on the two documents. I’ll be contacting Hertz to see if I can get any clarification from them.
George – good luck, and as you say, not signing ‘may’ mean that the fine is binned.
John – I think you, like many, signed without understanding what you were about to get, as most of us would; including me. I think contacting Hertz is the best thing to do in the first instance. I just hope you did not get two fines on the same day!
To everybody:
When I was a member of the AA, I was able to ask for free advice on motoring matters from the AA’s legal eagles. I would suggest that someone take legal advice on the subject of paying these fines and their validity both inside and outside the EC. But watch out for this reciprocal arrangement thing within the EC – although I don’t know if its effects will be retrospective in any way.
If anyone does get round to speaking to a lawyer about this, then please let me know how you get on so I can post something to help everyone out. Thanks in advance.
Alex
Hi — Same story here as John’s.
I recieved the letter today asking me for 110,4 euros for circulating in a traffic zone without authorisation. As John hertz paid it for me using my credit card details back in October 2006… or so i thought! I’ll need to confirm it with my credit card people.. Such a pain and 110 euro’s is not loose change.
I cant find hertz’s letter to me to check that it was at the same exact minute, but I’ll be persuing the issue with Hertz for clarification.
I like the AA legal advice idea too.. Surely you cant be fined for the same offence twice – or recieve 2 different fines for the same offence?
Please keep me posted
Richard
Similiar story here too…got the same fine notice for 99 euro, for an alleged offecnce in June 2006.
Im residemt in Ireland, so im not sure if the same principals apply here, similar to the UK?
Further to my earlier message, and seeing how many people seem to be affected by this, I decided to post the same report on the Daily Telegraph Travel hints and tips message board (www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/index.jhtml) to publicise it to a wider audience and hopefully warn people who are planning to go to Pisa. May be if enough people write in, the Telegraph might investigate further!
Thanks for that John. I have added something about your post on the Daily Telegraph Travel hints and tips message board from my main post Speeding Fines above.
Let’s hope something starts moving.
Alex
Hi, same story as everyone, 110.4 Euro’s for circulating in a restricted traffic zone. The offence is supposed to have happened on the 1st July 2006, is there any time limit for motoring offences i.e 6 months.
Jim
To keep you up to date, I have contacted hertz today and they also find it strange that they were not contacted directly regarding any fine whilst driving one of there rental vehicles. They would normaly pay for any fines from my credit card details. So they do not understand why I have received a traffic fine notice directly.
They are investigating my complaint to see if the Fine is indeed genuine or not.
These are interesting posts. I received a fine of €170 for a red light offence in august 2006 (I was there but don’t recall any red light offence). The hire car details appear correct.
What is odd is that the fine comes from European Municipality Outsourcing (EMO) but it has a page header with a poor copy of a web image of the Polizia Municipal.
It ends with ‘ The present notice is not a notification of a violation and so permits the driver to make the due payment in amicable circumstances thus avoiding the consequences of a notification according to international conventions in force’.
It was received in the normal post – not recorded.
It links to a web site where you have to log on to view details – presumably logging on will show you received it?
http://www.emo.nivi.it
Views appreciated
Interesting notes. I received 2 tickets from pisa (2 weeks apart) for restricted zone violations that were 7 minutes apart! The violation happened in June 2006! I had no idea what I did wrong while vacationing there. I did get a notice from hertz a couple months ago indicating the Pisa authorities requested operator info on the car I drove…. that cost 18 Euro for each notice. i argued with Hertz, that an 18 Euro Administrative charge from them was steep — but 2 charges for the same info for a violation 7 minutes apart is ridiculous… Hertz refunded oneo the charges…
I still don’t know wheteher to pay…certainly not 2 99.4 euro fines!
I guess I won’t be returning to Pisa again!
Steve
We went to Pisa in November last year. Hired a car from Hertz and guess what we have received this morning. Yes a notification from Hertz that we have committed a traffic offense whilst in Pisa and a charge of 18 Euros. We don’t yet know what the offense is and cant remember doing anything wrong. Indeed as a mature couple we go out of our way not to cause offense and to respect other countries laws Looking at others experiences it seems we can expect to receive a fine in excess of 100 Euros. Who knows, we might even have unknowingly committed this offence twice! We had arrived in Italy just two hours before and had the hire car for one hour. When I think of all the money we spent contributing to the Italian economy and supporting their tourist industry and how we came home vowing to return to relive what we thought was a wonderful holiday we are absolutely furious and will never return. We will pay the fine somehow but Italy will get no more money from us. Tourist in Pisa are sitting ducks! Going to cancel our Italian lessons at the local night school to help pay for the fine. Also looked on Trip adviser site and no mention of this nasty trick on there so maybe it should be posted on there also to warn other tourist how they can unwittingly fall fowl of the law. It might be legal but it is a scam to take money from unsuspecting tourist. I wonder just how much money the Pisa authorities are making from this. I dearly hope that they will be investigated by someone with some clout to let the whole of Europe know what they are doing.
More and more people seem to be being caught out by this Pisa thing. Write to your local MEP time, maybe? It does sound as though this needs to be looked into.
Alex
Hi Alex,
Have Emailed MEP. I will let you know if anything happens. If it gets looked into it might just mean better signposts, but at least it will help others not to fall into what seams a very unfair trap.
Well done and thanks Janet. Let’s hope this thing gets sorted out and soon. Summer is almost upon us, so many will be heading for Pisa….and ending up with a little ’souvenir’ that they had not expected….
Same story,I have just received in New Zealand a registered notice of a 110.4 euro fine this time in May last year having arrived in Pisa at midnight, stayed in prebooked Hotel then driven to Florence in the morning.
The time of the alleged offence “Circulating in restricted traffic zone without authorisation” must have been after leaving the Hotel and finding the way to the motorway. No signs or any other way of knowing we had done wrong. Again we had a Hertz car and Hertz had deducted 18 euro’s from our credit card “to cover costs of supplying details to to the relevant authority” It is very easy to believe that someone in Hertz is in cahoots with the independant collection agency sepi-pisa to send out dodgy fines and split the proceeds. Best advice seems to avoid both Pisa and Hertz like the plague. Pity-Pisa is a lovely town (if you can take your eyes off the road) and Hertz supplied us with a brand new Mercedes, but the fines totalled more than the hire! someone is making a profit here I think.
I have e-mailed the only address which is the sepi-pisa one suggesting it is a scam and requesting proof that the offence and fine are genuine. Then I found your dialogue on the net and realised I am not alone!
Let’s hope Janet’s letter to her MEP gets some results. If this is a fiddle, then it is being orchestrated on a large scale. Nice way of filling local council coffers and making the signs difficult to see means that the income stream is just about guaranteed. Not that I am saying this is the case, but all these cases here do start to make you wonder. Wandering into Pisa by car does not seem to be a fine thing to do.
Hello,
Same story here.
Just received two fines from european municipality outsorcing. Fines were driving in a restricted zone in Arezzo (not Pisa), fines were made on 19:25 and 19:33 . So they were only 8 minutes apart ??? No I have to pay € 202. Does someone has any idea wether these are genuine, or has any clarification of some sort? Sanne from Belgium
Sanne – if you want to hop over to my Englishisin site, you can use the messaging system to send me a mail. I have some scans of the genuine articles so I could compare them for you if you like.
Alex
hi scras
I have had exactly the same problem with two fines from EMO on behalf Commune di Arezzo arriving today – again both 8 minutes apart – 19.04 and 19.12 in august last year- same total 202 euros – in a hire car from Hertz. This is either an illegal scam or a creative way of balancing local authority finances. I saw no signs and have driven in this area of arezzo many times over the last 20 years. I love Italy, particularily Arezzo and the surrounding area, but feel so angry that I would consider a new destination for future holidays.
Jane from London
OK, this needs checking out. These double fines are too difficult to swallow. Can someone tell me if they have photos of these blasted ‘warning’ signs. If so, I’ll post them here so everyone knows what to look out for.
It is starting to sound as though someone is exploiting tourists.
Alex
I got a speeding ticket April 2004 just outside pisa, I havent paid it. Will they try a collect it now.
Great site, Brian
Brian,
From what I understand the limit for enforcing traffic offence related fines is 5 years. Which means you will not be in the clear until 2009! And watch out for the reciprocal arrangements which are now in force.
Alex
Hello,
I visited Italy in July 2006, and received a EUR 93.70 fine from EMO on 1st February 2007 for “Vehicle crossing a limited hours area outside of authorized hours”. I was at the location mentioned, but was not aware to broken any laws. The document looked like a scam (bad print quality on the paper and of the logo) so I decided to ignore and not pay the fine. End of April 2007; I have now received a 2nd letter from EMO threatening that in case of nonpayment after 60 days, the liable amount will increase to EUR 161.70. Entered their website http://www.emo.nivi.it and tried in vain to login to “access information relative to my current situation”. I am still not sure whether this is a fraud or not. Have now spoken to the Danish Consumer Society (Gov´t org). Their legal advisor had not heard a about EMO before, which of course does not necessarily proof any fraud. I will e-mail them a scanned copy of the fine and they will subsequently contact their sister organisation in Italy to verify the authenticy of the fine. Greetings from Denmark.
Guess what? I’m also in the process of querying two “traffic violations” that occurred whilst driving a hertz rented car in Italy, on the “heel” (Commune de Gallipoli).
One alleged offence was going through a red light (we are sure we didn’t do this), and the other was driving into a “restricted zone” – again, we’re pretty sure we didn’t do this, didn’t see any signs etc.
Both were reported on the same day, at very similar times (need to check if it’s 8 minutes apart!)
One difference – we were never notified by Hertz, and only found out the details after seeing the two 18-Euro charges appear on our credit card many months after the actual rental (we rented in August 2006, charges came in on our card on December 2006 and March 2007).
We’ve got copies of the letters/fax from the Italian authorities to Hertz Italy (in Italian). Only one of them (the restricted zone offence) says there is a fine involved. The other (red light) mentions so sum of money.
Given that the Hertz conditions say a 15 Euro (+3) fine applies “per parking or traffic fine”, it seems that we shouldn;t have been charged for the red light offence, since there’s no evidence of an actual fine for this.
The whole thing reeks of a very neat scam by the authorities in Italy. Spot a rented car – note the number plate and time, make up a red light and congestion zone offence or two, send a letter or two to Hertz Italy, get 36 Euros – everybody’s happy. There’s of course no way these alleged incidents can be queried, some 6 or 9 months after they occurred.
Am still querying this with Hertz.
Howard
Still waiting to hear what that MEP may say and do….
On the subject of road signs in Italy in general, yes, they are difficult to see at times. You are often presented with a forest of the things and it can be nigh on impossible to understand what they mean, especially if you are not Italian.
Not sure why they would have sent you a notification if they did not expect you to pay a fine. Does not make much sense, Howard. Hertz treatment seems erroneous if there was nothing to pay. I’d hassle them over that.
Pisa does seem to be the hot-spot for these fines, but I imagine, in time, many others will say how they have been caught out by Italian road regulations.
I’m trying to sort things out with Hertz at the moment…
My original comment above maybe wasn’t as clear as it should have been. The first we knew of a problem was 2 18-Euro charges appearing on our credit card from Hertz Italy. We didn’t get any notification from Hertz or the Italian authorities about reported traffic violations. Only after several letters to Hertz did we get the info that the 18 Euro charges related to traffic incidents, and Hertz then sent us copies of the fax/letters from the Italian police.
The fact we weren’t notified – simply charged – is one thing that’s particularly annoying.
I’m also thinking of making this issue known to our MEPs – the whole thing leaves the rental customer with no defense, and the chance that the whole thing could be a neat scam for the Italian authorities to make a fast buck from rental customers makes me think it needs to be questioned and/or investigated.
So – thanks for putting up this page and sharing some very useful info and experiences!
Howard
I have just received a limited traffic area with authorization for travel whilst in Sicily, some 7 months ago. However the fine (104.45 euros) from emo relates to a location that I was not in on the day that they state; hence I could not have possibly committed the crime that they mention.
How does one go about contesting this, or should one ignore. It does not look official and print is poor quality.
unfortunately I no longer have the hire car documentation from this holiday 7 months ago.
Howard – the 18 Euro charges seem to be a bit much in view of the fact that you have not been fined, despite these traffic incidents. I don’t think this is a scam by the Italian authorities, but it does appear that foreign drivers tend to get caught easily – and someone somewhere must be benefiting from this extra income.
Andrew – your case is a difficult one, but not unusual. I have heard of people, Italians, being fined for a driving offence when they were 200 miles away from the location of the offence. In order to contest this, you will need to write them a letter stating your case. It would be best to do this in Italian and I would attempt to contact the hire care company and get hold of copies of the documentation – or even find receipts for hotels, etc that could prove that you were nowhere near the location of the offence.
Good luck
Alex
Drove to Pisa on Thursday (24th May), thanks in combination to our ignorance of the city, and the world’s worst sat nav (you know it’s bad when at one point to tells you to follow the road signs instead of listening to it) we ended up driving into a restricted zone.
We knew we were doing it. We made one wrong turn, and due to a queue of traffic behind us (and anyone who’s driven in Italy knows delaying other traffic is suicidal) and the narrow streets and one way systems we were past the point of no return.
Now it’s just a waiting game to see if we get word from the car hire company and a fine in the future.
I understand the need to restrict access to certain areas at certain times – it’s what keeps the cities beautiful for us to visit. However it would be nice if there was some leeway. We were in the restricted area for less than 5 minutes – and that was spent desperately trying to find our way out of it!
We would also have been happy to pay an on the spot fine for it – after all we knew exactly what we’d done. Something similar to the congestion charge payment in London – where you can pay up to a certain time after entry.
Fingers crossed…
Nadine,
I can wholly sympathise with your momentary lapse. It is very easy to get caught up in the flow of Italian traffic and if you hesitate for a nano second, you will be beeped at. This pressure means that it is inevitable that wrong turns are made and you end up where you did not intend to be.
It will be interesting to see if a fine arrives – but it does depend upon whether you passed one of the cameras. You may be lucky, but maybe not.
The congestion charge system would probably be an answer, but so far, such a system has yet to be adopted here, as far as I know.
Wait and see time, in your case, I’m afraid – as you know.
Please let me know if a fine does drop through your letter box.
Alex
We have just received notification of two parking offences in Pisa which we had made in October of last year. We paid for parking and we were totally unaware that we were in a restricted zone. We were informed by our car leasing company that they had paid the fine and that they had deducted the amount from our credit card which we had used to pay for the car. The letter was dated in April. On checking it appears that the fine has not yet been paid.
Eileen – this double fine thing is a little odd – if you read above, another commenter – Howard is in a similar situation – though not regarding Pisa.
Are you sure the hire company has actually paid the fines and not just charged an ‘admin’ fee for processing them? If you look at your credit card statement and you find two amounts for around 18 Euros, then I think this refers to the processing fees, not payment of the fines. This may explain why the fines have not yet been settled. As some point you should receive formal notification from the Pisa authorities re the actual fines.
Hope that helps.
All the best,
Alex
PS Suggestion: Could someone try contacting Tom Tom or any of the other sat nav providers and asking them to add the Pisa restricted traffic zone to their maps?
Hi there, I just wanted to conclude on my comment of 3rd May 2007 whether EMO is a legal entity or the fine that tey had submitted was a refined fraud; with the assistance of the Danish consumer organization, which is gov´t sponsored, it unfortunately (since I now have to pay) turns out that EMO are for real. In fact I already did the payment online by credit card – just as easy as when buying anything else on the web. All the best.
Hi Morten.
Many thanks for having independently checked out the EMO set-up. Although my own investigations meant that I had reached the same conclusion regarding EMO, it is good to hear a second opinion which confirms what I believed.
This will be useful info for all those who happen upon this blog entry.
Alex
A further update: after querying things with Hertz, they agreed to refund the two 18-Euro administration charges “as a gesture of goodwill”. Very pleased with this outcome! Thanks again to contributors to this page, very useful to have this extra info.
To clarify – the 18-Euro Hertz charges were added as an admin fee by Hertz Italy, following a request from the Italian authorities to Hertz Italy about who was renting the car in question. We have not yet had any direct correspondence from Italy about the traffic fines themselves.
We queried Hertz about this, and asked if we should expect a letter from Italy for the traffic fines to be paid. Interestingly, they said this might not happen. Was surprised by this!
So – haven’t (yet) been asked to pay any traffic fines yet, and had the associated Hertz admin charges refunded. Just shows it’s worth chasing the rental company.
Howard
Thanks for the update Howard – good news about the Hertz admin fees! Let’s hope those fines really don’t turn up.
“We queried Hertz about this, and asked if we should expect a letter from Italy for the traffic fines to be paid. Interestingly, they said this might not happen. Was surprised by this!”
I wonder if someone from the Italian authorities has been reading this entry in my blog…..! Hope someone from Pisa council finds his or her way here.
Blogger (and commenter) power??
All the best,
Alex
PS I’m going to get hold of that Make A Jazz Noise Here Frank Zappa album that you love – I love guitar, especially electric and electro acoustic stuff. One of these days I’ll get round to getting another geetar and trying to learn to play it! (I think my hands are too dinky) I’d love an Ovation electro acoustic model, and when funds permit…..I’ll get one and shave down the neck!! In which case I shall be back to your site which is full of very useful info. I’m glad you dropped in here!! Cheers!
My spouse was in Italy in June of 2006 and we too received the $18 Hertz charge and the SAME exact wording and numbers for the bank as others posted on here for “circulating in restricted traffic zone without authorization”…. Seems a bit odd that all infractions appear around the same time frame, with EXACT wording and bank numbers. We are from the US- not sure where others were from that posted here…
The item that I’m stuck on is, if the bank numbers are exactly the same on all of these “transactions/offenses”, then how in the world would Comune di Pisa know if it was my spouse that paid and not someone else???
I was relieved to see your postings on this matter! Thank you!!!!
I’m trying to fill out that form mentioned above from e.pisa.it and cannot find a “tax identification number” anywhere on the offense letter…??? what is this number? thanks!
Hi Kelly,
I think you can leave the Tax Identification number blank, because you don’t have one. I think this refers to the Italian Codice Fiscale – Fiscal Code which everyone who lives or works here legally gets. I shall have a look at the form and check that what I’ve said is accurate. I’ll post again here if it is not.
All the best,
Alex
Kelly,
I’ve had a look at the registration form – in Italian, and the first thing they ask for is the Codice Fiscale – and it is a required field. As you don’t have this, I’m not sure what you need to do. Maybe someone else here can advise you. I do know that there are sites where you can discover what your Italian tax code would be, but I’m not sure you could use a non-registered code. You could try it and see what happens. If you want to have a go at this let me know and I’ll tell you where to go. Otherwise, you could try entering your US (You are from the US??!!) social security number, I think it is.
Alex
Dont bother with phoning the DVLA number, they are not in the slightest bit interested and the miserable little grey man I spoke to said its nothing to do with them.
I was sent a speeding fine from my holiday last year (on the motorway near Pisa, they seem to be pretty hot round that way,)It looks pretty genuine it came registered to my home address via the car hire company i assume(they have not had any other involvement as far as admin fees charged to my credit card or suchlike) and had a nice B&W photo of me the wife and the kids in our little punto rattling down the motorway at 123km/h. I have not as yet paid (167 euros) as
1. I dont speak/read Italian and can’t understand it and
2. I stuck my head in the sand and hoped it would just go away.
Probably not the most sensible thing to do as we are planning on visiting another part of Italy later this year and wonder if that may cause any problems….anybody had experience of that?I probably should do something about it but there as always that bit of you that wants to stick two fingers up to authority.
Ian,
Sorry to hear about the grey man – maybe you got him on a grey day.
It sounds as though you have been hit with a fine from an authority that has not yet got round to issuing fines in other languages. The fine should provide you with information about an Italian bank account into which the money could be paid – see this comment above by Loren | December 24, 2006
If I were you, I would not worry too much about coming to Italy, especially if you go to another part. There is a slim chance that when the hotel registers your passport with the local police here in Italy, if you stay in a hotel, your non-payment might show up, but I doubt it. The IT systems here are not the most advanced in the western world, but they are getting better. Do please let us know if they mention your fine though – this would mean that things were getting worryingly efficient.
You could try the ostrich trick, but you might end up with another demand for an even higher amount, although, as I have observed before, I’m just not sure how far the Italian authorities would go to chase non-payment when the non-payer is not from Italy. By not paying, maybe you could help us all find out just what happens when you ignore these things…. Are you a gambling man? I’ll let you decide.
You could also try sticking two fingers up at the Italian authorities, but they would not understand you. You would get much more attention if you used a single finger – the middle one. I think they can still arrest you for this gesture….
All the best,
Alex
Plenty of grey days over here at the moment!
(plenty of grey people here as well)
To be honest I probably could work out where to send the money to if I made the effort but its gonna cost me if I do!!!So I wont and I will take the gamble, god damn it all I will
The authorities over here are getting frighteningly good at collecting fines in some areas (100% clear up rates are not uncommen ) and laughingly lackadaisical in others. A postcode lottery aon law enforcement
Would two fingers work if it was the middle finger on each hand?
Hi, in the same boat. Hired a car in Italy last August got a violation in Bologna which still escapes me what for.The ticket came through six months after the event and the hire car company paid it 80euros + 50 admin straight from debit card details.So far no problem,put it down to bad luck. Then two months ago I received two speeding tickets within a week, passed on by the hire car company this time 60 euros admin each one again taken straight from my bank.Despite getting an Italian friend to plead on my behalf to reduce the Admin charge SCICILY BY CAR would not budge. They haven’t paid the fines of 140 euros each (70km in a 50 zone althuogh I swear I drive extremely carefully through both the small villages where the offenses alledgedly happened as they are on the way to my mothers house and they are clearly signposted). I am feeling slightly wary as I go to Italy most years but am tempted to adopt ostrich approach. Hiring from PISA airport this year wish me luck!
Ed – yet another victim, I note. I could probably find out what the Bologna fine was for, if you have the original Italian document, and you really want to know, that is. Let me know.
As for this year’s trip – I notice that you are going to hire a car at Pisa airport. Eek! I hope you don’t feel the temptation to go into central Pisa by car while you are in the area. Central Pisa’s restricted traffic zone has become a little notorious, as you may have seen from all the comments here. Take care and everything will be fine
!
Have a good time on holiday here!
Regards,
Alex
I think this is all a huge scam. They see a rental car and fine them for what ever 5 euros or 10 euros for a parking viloation. Does not seem like much when taken right out of an account but that really adds up when they do it to thousands of people. I had two 8 euro fines for different parking violations and I just got a speeding ticket a year after the fact near Pisa. No police ever approached me or put anything on my vehicle while I was over there. They just sent the information to the rental company, sounds a little fishy to me. Sure I am going to pay the fines. I may have been speeding but I was only going the same speed as the rest of the traffic if you drive too slow over there you also run the risk of an accident. Oh well I won’t ever go back there and I will suggest that no one I know does either.
Hi can anyone give me advice. I have just recieved a fine for 178 euros for apparently speeding in Italy. I have no idea where the place of the offence is and also why has it taken nearly a year to process.
What will happen if I dont pay the fine and also has anyone contested a fine. Also it says on the fine document that if I contest the fine and thay still say I have to pay it I will have to pay double. This is rubbish and extortionate.
Please give me advice cheers David
Sorry about the late replies – I was on holiday and we had a hire car (eek!).
Andrew, I don’t think this is a scam, but I understand how people end up feeling scammed as a result of receiving a fine after being so totally unaware of entering zones in which they will be fined. Large clearly marked multi-lingual signs would be a great help in this area – or at least hire or foreign cars should be exempt.
David, it should say on the fine somewhere just where you were and what you did to get the fine. You could try contesting it, but you would need an English speaking Italian lawyer to do this and the cost would end up being more than the 178 Euros, I’m pretty sure. The doubling of fines is normal practice here and is designed to encourage people to pay up in time. If you are Italian, you pay and then contest, but this is not practicable for non-Italian residents and so is rather unfair to them.
To be honest, I think it is probably much easier for the Italian authorities to extract fine payments from foreigners than it is to get them from Italians who are great at coming up with all sorts of excuses, although, it has to be said that the Italian authorities are starting to crack down on Italians – even threatening to take their beloved cars away if they don’t pay up.
As I have commented before, those wonderful Euro MEPs should be sorting this out – someone had written to one of these people, but I’m not sure how they got on. Shame That’s Life is no longer shown in the UK – this sounds like a story for them or some travel programme. Maybe a few of those affected could try dropping a line to the BBC about this. I’m sure some presenter or other would not mind spending a little time in Italy investigating this sticky issue….
Alex
I can understand getting a ticket for driving in a restricted area as these are usually posted. But what irritates me is when I hear about foreigners from other parts of Europe who come here to Italy and get speeding tickets. I NEVER hear about Italians getting speeding tickets. They drive so reckless and irresponsible here it is terrible. I want to know where the surveillance cameras are on the Autostrada??? In Lombardia where I live it is getting more and more dangerous to drive. Just in the last 6 months my husband and I noted how horribly reckless Italian drivers are. It seems they have no compassion for their fellow man. In the town where I live north of Milan the driving is ruthless; men and women alike drive like devils. They don’t stop to let people walk across pedestrian walkways. They bully pedestrians off the sidewalks as they drive up on the sidewalk to park their cars !!! You never see police anywhere. You never see cameras recording speeding or reckless driving or bullying. Most foreigners who come here drive conservatively. I see how the foreing guests drive. Yet, the Italian authorities manage to give speeding tickets to the foreign drivers here. Very Interesting. The Italian system seems to have a double morality. Karin
What you say is very true Karin – foreign drivers are easy targets – they pay up and shut up. Whereas Italians, in the main, neither pay up nor shut up. This is why one of those MEP gods should be looking into this issue.
Regards,
Alex
Same boat here. I got this letter from Hertz today telling me that 18€ charged my credit card for giving information to the “Nessesary authorities”. It is commented with Offence: “Verbale fine on lane”. My belief up to this date was that if you violate anny law in Italy the police will take direct contact with you. Because of this was not true I thought it was a scam so I called the credit card company to block my credit card. I was in Milan in the beginning of April and now after 5 months they start messing with this offence that I don’t know wath is. I live in Norway and we are not a member of the EU. If I recieve this Fine my plan is to ask for Evidence, If evidence is not given to me I will go to the Police here in Norway and report it as a Freud. I will simply claim that this offence never happend. Than the norwegian laws is like this: Companies that are making people pay by force can not take this case because than they will lose their authorisation if they participate in Freud. However I am not sure if the Italians have anny agreement with Norway to get theese money by force annyway. And after this I rather go to Spain next time.
I have received notification of a speeding fine from Pisa.
The date of the offence is October 06, it is now September 07.
The document is very kindly translated into English.
According to the document, I am the owner of the car in question (whereas I hired the car).
The document gives an account number into which the fine (57 Euros) is to be paid
Oh, it cost the person sending it 4 Euros.
So is it genuine?
If I pay an amount into the numbered account given, how do the police know it is from me? I could have it paid from an account not in my name. The only way they could tell that I had paid fine is if there was an account opened for my fine only – and nothing else. Do you think the Pisa police have an opened a separate bank account for everyone to whom they issue a fine?
However, I am not going to just ignore it. Clearly someone has passed my hire car details (from Pisa) on to these scammers. What other information do they have on me?
If someone were to rob a shop of £100, people would quite rightly expect the perpetrator to be arrested. If someone sets up a bogus bank account to collect money from people they have scammed, I would expect the police to ask; who owns the account, checkout who has paid money into the account and why, and arrest those concerned. But sadly the police have better things to do (catch motorists on speed cameras).
I expect the scammers to respond to this message – explaining that the fine is genuine and how the police can trace that my fine has been paid.
There are other faults with the document – but I don’t want to give the scammers too much information – anyway, why should they bother to improve the fake speeding notice, if so many are falling for it.
Mike.
Mike, I’ll email you about this.
Alex
Alex
I’ve just received aletter from Europcar charging 36 euros for administration. Attached were two letters from the Rome Polizia Municipale to Europcar, alleging my hire car went into restriced traffic zones on the 4th & 5th May 2006!
We were there on hols on those dates with a Europcar hire car, but after all this time – should I pay the police?
The document says the fine should be paid within 60 days!! or else it escalates to 275 euros. So I guess I would be charged 275 for each offence if I paid now, although of course – like others- I was unaware that I’d gone into these ‘restricted zones’.
Should I wait for something to come to me direct from the Police?
Is the offence now ‘out of date’?
Alan
Hi Alan,
Sorry to hear about your fine, but you raise an interesting issue. That is, should you pay the original fine or the 275 Euros, times 2? A very good question, but seeing as you did not receive the notification until recently, the 60 days should run from the date of receipt not the date of offence. However, i do not know the rules on this. I’ll give the police a ring tomorrow and ask them. Then I’ll post back here.
Alas, the fine is not out of date. Info on the State Police Site mentions 5 years before the fine becomes expires.
Alex
Alex seems very keen on promoting the fact that these fines are genuine – he says he will e-mail me re my comments above (I await his e-mail with interest).
Does Alex have my e-mail address?
Imagine if the police in your home country, wrote to you advising of a motoring offence and gave details of a bank account into which to pay the fine. They provided no reference number to allow traceability of payment.
Either such a scheme is a scam or the police have no way of determining who has paid their fine.
Take my ‘fine’ of 57 euros, let us say, my uncle in the USA pays the fine on my behalf – how the hell do the police in Pisa know my fine has been paid (unless they have set up an account for my fine only)?
Alex is going to expalin this one!!!!!
I suspect the poilce might be interested in Alex’s e-mail and postal address as part of their investigation into this scam.
Mike,
Oh dear, looks as though I might get myself in hot water over this. Let me say that I am not at all ‘keen’ on promoting the fact that these fines are genuine, and I would be quite happy for the police to have my email address etc, then at least I would know something is being done about this and so I too could establish whether these fines are in actual fact genuine and then let people know.
What I try to do, when I have the time, is ringing someone, mentioning the offence number and waiting for them to give me the car registration plate details and model – it is not an exhaustive check, I know, but it is all I can really do to check these things out. Sorry, if it is not enough. If someone can suggest a better way, then I’d be happy to hear it and publish it on this site.
I am neither an investigator, lawyer or a member of any police force, and I have tried to point out that I really am no expert on this. I don’t think I have ever made myself out to be one, and I do try to encourage others to check with the authorities in their own countries. What I can do, if you want, is contact the authorities here, but I maybe just making this all up and taking my cut – which could be the case – and if you believe this, and if I offer some assistance, you can simply say no. This would be understandable.
Maybe I should stop trying to help, and hope that, as I have mentioned on more than one occasion, someone contacts an MEP, or speaks to a lawyer in their own country.
As for your email address, I am assuming that the one you left is genuine. If not, and I would not be too surprised if it is not, after all, you do not know me from Adam, which means you have every right to be suspicious.
As for the case of your uncle paying the fine on your behalf, as long as someone pays the money into the bank account which the Pisa police use, and quote the correct reference number, then the matter is closed. It does not matter who pays, so much as if the amount is settled. At least this means that the next time you come to Italy and go to Pisa, nobody will come knocking on your hotel room door (although the chances of this happening are slim) asking you to pay a fine.
If you do want to give the US or UK police my email, then please do by all means. If they think I can help, or wish to check that I am not in the scam, that’s fine by me. Got nothing to hide.
I suppose I should have expected a comment like this at some point. Oh well, trying to help probably was not a good idea. Sorry. I shall have a think about how to proceed in the future.
Kind regards,
Alex
Mike, I have sent a mail to the address you left.
Alex
Alex
Can you pay these fines using a VISA card by giving it’s number to the local police over the phone?
Alan
hi, i have just received a speeding fine from italy for october 2006 stating i need to pay a fine of 57.30 euros .This car was a hire car for my husband to drive not me but was my credit card details we left with the company.it came in an evelope which said needs to be signed for ,this i didnt do, it was just on my door mat with an orange card which is totally in italian but looks to me from avis car hire .it also gives me a website to go to ,to see photoshot but this page doesnt work .some people have said just to ignore it has i didnt sign for it but am worried by this and dont really know what to do as it was definately not me driving .
Deb
Alan,
I had a look at the Rome Municipal Council site, but it looks as though there is no way to settle fines over the phone by Visa, and anyway, I would be a bit wary about giving this information over the phone, if that is, you could find someone who can understand you.
I have just had a word with a person on the number 060606, the number given to me by the municipal police in Rome, and was told: a) the 60 days runs from the date of notification of offence b) the fine can be paid by bank transfer using the following info:
Beneficiary: Tesoriera del comune di Roma
Bank: Banca di Roma
iban code: it80e0300205117000000010171
swift code: brom it r1052
And within the bank transfer info include some brief details about the dates and times of the offence, car reg (targa) and the ‘Casuale’, if you can find it, which should be the offence reference number, so they will know who has paid what and why.
In light of a recent comment, I would also like to point out that although I have used my best efforts to obtain the information provided here, I have not verified it. Please can you do this independently, so that you can be certain that I am not attempting to ’scam’ you. I am not a policeman, expert on the subject of international fine payment or a lawyer, so I cannot guarantee the accuracy of the information I provide.
Sorry about the blurb above, Alan, but I think I’m going to have to do this from now on to cover my back.
Hope the info helps – and I’ve posted it here so that everyone else can see what I have done and so others may also benefit from it and use it to confirm info they may have. And so that I will not be considered a potential scammer!
Kind regards,
Alex
Deb,
Where did you get the fine, Rome, Milan or elsewhere? In any case, I’m not too sure as to what you should do as you were not driving. The car hire documentation should specify who was the named driver, so you could use that in your defence. In any case, you should probably write back to them, in English, if you are from the UK, quote the details and tell them you were not driving at the time. But, as I said before, I’m not sure how you should proceed. Perhaps you could try speaking to someone at your local police station or the AA or RAC.
Please note that I am not a policeman, expert on the subject of international fine payment or a lawyer, so I cannot guarantee the accuracy of the information and/or opinions I provide.
Kind regards,
Alex
Further to my comments above, re payment of the fine from a bank not in my name. I have recently conducted a payment for goods via International Payment (as requested by the speeding fine document). The seller would not accept payment by credit card, claiming his bank would charge 5%, so I agreed to pay by bank transfer. I knew that if the guy did a runner, I would only have a piece of paper saying I had paid, but it looked a legit website, with feedback from satisfied customers, and everything went OK.
I still have my copy of the International Payment form that I completed to make the transaction. Although there is space on the form for a reference number, it is clearly optional (as I did not enter anything). Assuming someone else paid my speeding fine and did not enter any (or the correct) reference number – they (the Pisa police or the scammers) would have no way of knowing who the payment was from or what it was for.
The instructions for payment do not require any reference number to be quoted.
The rear of the speeding notice gives a web address claiming ‘access to the photographic document’ (I have not tried it). I know that the police could choose any name for their website – but having the word ‘BABY’ in the address, is just a bit amateurish.
Mike.
I’m still very worried about you, Alex.
You seem to be making things up as you go along.
Now, I have written many e-mails in which I have said that I would get back to someone, with an answer that I did not have to hand. Never, have I then included the answer in that same e-mail, as you have done, re the fine being valid for 5 years.
I don’t know how long the Italian police have to issue notification of a fine, for it to be valid – but imagine that period is 5 years – who the hell is going to remember where they were 5 years ago? Some people I know would not be able to recall the model of car they owned. I must admit, I do not know how long the UK police have to notify someone of a speeding offence, but I would be very surprised if it was longer than 60 days, and is probably 30 days. From what you say, that period in Italy is 1,825 days !!!!
I also note that you have started advising people to include some reference to the fine within their payment details, since my first comments. Clearly the Italian police have some way of tying up a payment from anyone in the world (with no relation to the speeding fine) to the speeding fine – otherwise they would be asking for this information themselves.
Mike.
Thanks for your comments, Alex.
It would appear that virtually every one of the recent entries on your site is outside the 150 days time limit for notification of fines – some over 400 days [around 330 days in my case].
Do the Italian police know the law in their own country?
I know that you say that you are not certain of the time limit – but even 150 days would appear excessive.
I’m sorry, but there are more holes in the Italian traffic fines reported on your blog, than a piece of Swiss cheese.
Mike.
Thank you for worrying about me Mike. Let me clarify the fine validity situation, as I understand it, but, as I have stressed to point out I am not an expert – I have not made any claim to be one. But you seem to think I am making myself out to be one.
Anyway back to these fines. If this type of fine is considered to be an infraction of the Italian highway code – I think it is, but I’m not sure – I’m not an expert, then the total period allowed from receipt of the fine to the collection of payment is 5 years. But, having said this, and this may get some people off here, the local authority in which the infraction takes place, appears to have 150 days from the offence to get the fine to the offender, otherwise it is no longer valid apparently. This is my interpretation, but I am no expert on this (I have taken this info from the Italian state police site here:
Look for Risposta n 15.
So Alan and Deb above possibly have not received a valid fine. I say possibly because I AM NOT AN EXPERT on this, so this needs checking out and confirming.
As for requesting people to make some reference to the fine in their payment details, well, this seems obvious to me, but I thought restating it might be helpful (I have mentioned this in emails to others – before you came on the scene). Giving a reference does not do any harm – belt and braces approach. In Italy, things can be odd and unreliable – just the way the country is.
I suggest you read the PLEASE READ THIS section of my original post above – which I put there ages ago, just in case someone came along and complained about my comments. I knew it would happen one day.
I have attempted to check things out a little, because I’d like to try and help but a) it’s not my job b) I am not an expert c) what I do is an informal attempt to help. I hope the commenters here understand this.
If you want to check this out fully, go for it, get onto a lawyer etc. And if find that some of my comments are not accurate, let me know, and I’ll remove/correct them. No problem – and there are probably inaccuracies because, as you fail to understand I am not an expert on this subject.
Kind regards,
Alex
PS this site is my blog, it is not the AA, RAC or any other formal informational site – if you want conclusive info on this – go to the proper authorities, get in touch with your MEP, which is something I have already mentioned a number of times.
Mike, you are right, I know that there are many holes in the Italian traffic fines reported here. That is Italy – complex and confusing. And I bet that if you tried to contact 3 different local authorities here about these darned fines, you would get three different opinions. That’s the way it is. Check out Beppe Grillo’s (There is an English version if your Italian is not too hot) blog to get an understanding of just how things don’t work here.
Looking through the comments and my original post above, I think I would be right in saying that I have tried to encourage someone to look into this issue. I am not an expert, says he yet again, so I am just not the person to be doing the checking out – I am not qualified to do so, I know.
All I can hope is that this blog post and its many comments may catch the attention of someone out there and that something will end up being done. Then perhaps we can discover whether this is some kind of scam. I don’t think it is, but I just do not know.
Best regards,
Alex
ALex
Interesting comments about fines. I as sure that you are right about the inconsistencies of the italian “legal” system. I believe that unless you have had experience of some countries its hard to appreciate the way they operate. I am sorry to see others assuming you are a scammer. Having read your blog I would say that an IBAN account number, swift code and bank name along with a reference eg reg number would be all you would need to pay a fine. I have made many euro payments in connection with having property in Spain and thats the details you nee. All this about international payment orders is just an old way of doing things and is not the easy or right way to do it. Anyone making a Euro payment to Italy can do so from their bank with no hassel. SO I don’t buy the excuse to note make a payment ouit of an standard account.
Now to my fun – went to Pisa and Florence over th 26th to 29th May 2007 and hey presto I get today a note from Avis about a fine heading my way for Florence in a restricted area. Sounds sadly genuine but as you say poor sign posts help matters if you want to screw tourists. My question is whether a letter is worth the effort in Italian after the event ie its been paid. Secondly how do you log on to these police sites that show the pictures – Avis has the web site and an eg. Will the fine show a log on reference?
Lastly, I would not get spooked by Mike. Not sure what his issue is.
kind regards
Simon
Simon,
Thanks for your support! And for your info re making Euro payments to Italy. I will admit to being a little spooked by dear old Mike, and I half expect INTERPOL to turn up and accuse me of being an international scammer! But to his credit, Mike did thank me for my info, so I hope he will not report me to the cops. I make no money from this here blog, I do it for fun, but I was expecting someone like Mike to come along one day, hence my Please Read This section in the main post way above all the comments. Nowadays you need to cover your back, just in case….
Now, to your fun! In my opinion, a letter after the fine has been paid will not get much further than the bin, alas. They have the cash. However, you could try, you never know.
Re the web site, you should be able to use the fine reference code or ‘Causale’ in Italian, to access the info about your fine. Before you can log on, you will probably need to register – this should not be too much of a problem even if the site is in Italian, however, the fun starts when you are faced with a request for a ‘codice fiscale’ a sort of Italian tax code, which most foreigners do not have. In this case, you can either try to leave the field blank or try here: http://www.moduli.it/cms.php/codfis
(21/09/07 – link to codice fiscale calculator corrected – Please let me know if it does not work – Alex)
This site, in Italian and trustworthy I believe, will allow you to calculate your very own Codice Fiscale, although it is not infallible, and the result may not be usable, but you could give it a try – there are other similar sites out there, but do not pay for this code calculation service. (30 dollars on one site to have the ’software in English’ – a real 500% scam!)
To help you: ‘Cognome’ is surname, ‘Nome’, your first name – Simon, and ’sesso’, is sex, M is male (t’other F is ‘female’, but I reckon you could have worked that out!) and put ‘Gran Bretagna’ – Great Britain – in the ‘luogo di nascita’ section (I think you are from the UK??) and finally, put EE in the ‘Prov’ field, fill in the ‘data di nascita’ which is date of birth. Hit ‘Calcola’ and you should be good to go. PS this system got my codice fiscale spot on!
Then you can have a go at registering on the site where your holiday snaps from the dark side are kept.
Hope that helps,
Cheers Simon – and remember I am not an expert!!!!
I have returned to this Blog often to get some updates. In my first post several days ago I told that I received a letter from Hertz where I was charged the 18€ administration fee. I thought it was a scam so I blocked my credit card. I found this blog and had a lot of interesting reading before I called the car rental company (Hertz). This blog made me realize that my Fine can be real. However I have still not got the Fine it selves.
Before I called Hertz I did some “homework” where I prepared my selves what to say (thanks to this blogg!!!).
Than I called them: (This is a bit simplified, but gives you an idea about my feedback to Hertz)
First I told them that charging my CC after 5 months initially made me think about a scam, than I blocked my CC.
Than I told them that I had investigated this my selves. And for my case this fine probably was real.
I than told them that these Italian Fine’s is a problem for tourists in rental cars especially. And here I made a point of that people are being so confused about this that there exists blogs on the internet where this is being discussed and Hertz is mentioned explicit. (I said “blogs” but so far I only know about this blog). I pointed out that “People” are discussing whether these fines are real when the rental companies are charging their customers for administration fee anyway. And I ended my “speech” with: Due to my observations there is a growing opinion among people in the blogs that the combination of Hertz** in Pisa or Milano is to be avoided. Because some people doubt the realness of the Fines. And people are thinking that the car rental companies are cooperating with the authorities in squeezing the tourists for money.
** Since I was talking to Hertz i gave all the pepper to them. But I realise that other companies also are mentioned. I did not give the link or address to this blog. My basic Idea with the feedback was to make them understand that “if you f**k the tourists they will f**k you” and the Fine’s is a real problem that put their name into shame because when Italians drive like they are late for their own funeral, well-driving tourists are bugged with Fines for being in a restricted area.
The Customer Service did actually thank me for the feedback and called my speech “interesting”.
Thanks for this Blogg Alex!!
Asbjorn – First, thanks for your thanks. Second, thanks for drawing Hertz’s attention to this little problem. Let’s hope it starts an internal investigation, and that Hertz at least manage to establish that nothing untoward is going on with regard to its operations. If it is, and I not for one moment saying that it is, then Hertz brand image could end up being dented. I do hope Hertz’s customer service sits up and takes notice, and just does not sit on this issue and file it away as being a minor complaint.
It’s a shame that no newspapers are looking into this, too.
Incidentally, I know of three or so forums where this issue has come up and two have linked to this post, so at least people are becoming aware that this is going on.
Watch this space time, I feel.
Thanks again, Asbjorn.
Kind regards,
Alex
Ciao,
I used my friends car when I was visiting in Italy. Now she has got a speeding ticket by mail. Propably they have had some camera/radar contorl in a highway where I drove too fast. I’d like to know if the speeding fine is for a owner of the car in this situation. Should it belong to the driver of the car. Will she get some nasty consequences if she doesn’t pay the fine.
Respect,
-Arthuro
Arthuro,
First, I am not an expert, so please have what I say checked.
Now, check that the fine is actually for a speeding offence and not some minor infraction that will not lead to points being deducted from an Italian driving licence.
If the fine is for speeding, then, as I understand it, under Italian law your Italian friend is obliged to pass your details, driving licence, address, etc to whoever issued the fine within 60 days of the notification of the offence. See, in Italian, here
Otherwise, your friend had better pay the fine or she may face another fine of between 250 and 1000 Euros. If your fine concerns an offence which leads to the deduction of points from an Italian driving licence, and your friend pays, she will lose some of the 20 points that each Italian driver has on his or her licence. Lose all twenty and the driver concerned will be required to re-take the Italian driving test. This is something to keep in mind. So, the fine, in answer to your question, applies to the driver of the car, not the owner, at the time of the offence.
If your friend does not pay the fine, the amount will increase and things will become more complicated for her. So get her to pass your details to the fine issuers, if there is still time.
Hope that helps, but do check what I have said.
Kind regards,
Alex
Arthuro,
One other thing, if the fine is for something that will not cause points to be deducted from your friend’s licence, then you could ask her to pay it and then send her the money. In this case, the fine will be settled and the matter should go no further.
But, please get a second opinion on this. Sorry to be such a bore about this, but I feel that I need to cover my back in case someone accuses me of giving them the wrong info and they end up getting in trouble as a result of following my informal advice. Or worse, I end up being labelled as a scammer.
Thanks for reading.
To all readers:
Maybe someone else here could either confirm or otherwise that what I have been saying is accurate or not. I would have no problem at all with being corrected, in fact I would welcome it – then at least everyone will have something concrete to go on.
Cheers to one and all,
Alex
Thanks Alex! For using a lot of time on answering people in this blog. I have seen that there have been posts where people have started to doubt your intensions. I have spendt some time in reading most of the postings here and I have to say clearly: Not at any time have any of your posts or comments made me doubt your intensions. For me it is clear that you are not a scamer. I just wanted to write wath I think, and probably most of everyone else in here also thinks. Thanks for beeing honest, but I think it should not be nessesary for you to point out that you are “not an expert” all the time. The people comming to this blog should simply take their time to read the blog before they start to mean anything about the intensions behind the blog, and the answer will come by it selves. I just want to give you clear support on this issue.
Thanks,
Asbjorn
I have also recently received notification of a traffic violation (driving in a restricted zone) in July 06. Europcar had deducted an €18 admin fee from my credit card, and has sent me a copy of page 1 of the polizia municipale document. This mentions the €68 fine, 60 days to pay, and the higher fine of €275. However I found a statement on the web that the time limit for notification of the fine is 150 days. When I raised this with Europcar in Rome, they said that the police have 150 days to notify the owner – the car rental company, who then have 60 days to reply to the police with the renter’s details, and the police have then a further 150 days to contact the renter directly, making a total of 360 days for the violation to be valid. I have yet to receive anything formal from the police, and I am now outside the 360 day period. So I wonder if I am now in the clear, or should I pay?
Asbjorn – thanks once again for being so supportive. I don’t expect any thanks for trying to help out a little, but when I am thanked, it is greatly appreciated. So, cheers once again! I think I will continue to point out that I am not an expert – although I do feel a bit silly doing it – this is only a little blog after all!
Sean – OK, I’ve had a look into this time limits thing a bit more and from what I can make out from the Italian Automobile Club site here:
http://www.aci.it/index.php?id=427
There is indeed, as you say, a time limit of 150 days for the notification of the fine, if the individual committing the violation is resident in Italy. This limit extends to 360 days for individuals committing violations who are not resident in Italy, however, both these time limits run from as soon as the actual offender has been identified:
In Italian: La Corte Costituzionale, con sentenza 198/1996, ha stabilito che il termine dei 150 giorni, nel caso in cui l’identificazione dell’effettivo trasgressore avvenga successivamente rispetto al momento in cui la violazione è stata commessa, decorre dalla data in cui l’autorità è in grado di identificarlo.
My translation: Decision 198/1996 of the Constitutional Court established that the 150 (360) day period in situations in which the identification of the actual offender is subsequent to the moment in which the violation occurred shall run from the date the authority is able to identify such offender.
So, in your case, it appears that the 360 days starts running from as soon as the police have been advised by the car rental company who you are, so this means presumably that the police must send you a fine within this 360 day period, otherwise it is no longer valid.
My understanding is that you now need to know when the rental company got round to telling the police who you are and then add 360 days so you can check by when the police should send you this fine. For the moment, seeing as you personally have not yet received any notification from the police, you may get away with this.
Let’s hope nothing drops through the letter box. Please have my translation checked out – sorry, but I’m going to point out that I am not an expert on this subject yet again.
Hope that helps,
Kind regards,
Alex
PS I shall add the info about the time limits thing to my main post.
Many thanks Alex.
Your translation is perfect, as far as I can see. It looks like I had better pay up before the fine increases to €275.
No worries Sean. Glad to have been of help.
Hi I got a fine for speeding its 178 euros and it says if I dont pay it will be 321 euros.
Can any one tell me a, has anyone not paid the fine and got away with it.
b, what web site do I go on to register the fine I have no idea how to contact the police in Italy.
c, Do people living outside the UK get this stupid treatment
if they hire a car and comitt a trafic offence in Britain.
I personally think its a rip off the Italian have got a bleeding cheek.
all the best David
Hi David,
Sorry to hear about yet another fine.
About a) I’ll wait until someone else replies regarding not having paid a fine.
Now, b) You should be able to find the website from the area of Italy in which you collected the fine. Although it is likely that the website will be in Italian, alas. I know this makes matters difficult, and I agree that if they are sending out fines all over the world, then the web sites should be in various languages.
And, c) Yes, quite a few of the comments here have been made by people from outside the UK, if that is any consolation.
As for the rip off thing – if you think this then write to your MEP, local MP, the AA or RAC etc and ask them to look into it – which is something I have suggested more than once.
All the best,
Alex
Hi Alex…
Very helpfull indeed. I just received a charge from the rental car company for administrative costs (€18).
Reason is: Verbale fine on line, but I have not received anything from the Police or the tranit authority in Italy. By the way, I was in Pisa during the days of the alleged infraction.
What does “Verbale fine on line” means?
What should I do?
Thanks
Hi,
My story goes like this:
I hired a car in Italy in July 06, my credit card was charged 18€ in July 07, I received a normal letter containing two bad photocopies of official looking document in August 07 (letter was dated in the same day that administration fee was charged – it took some 30 days to be delivered to me). After some intensive reading and guessing I finally realized the document being a some sort of fine for “zona traffico limitato”.
Total was around 70 euros and some polizia municipale office hours were mentioned for paying purposes… Since there were clearly no way I could pay it abroad, I didn’t bother do anything about it.
So after that, a few days ago I received a note about incoming registered mail from Italy, polizia municipale, etc. and decided to check my options before singing any receipt for receiving it…
Another website I found mentioned a time limit for delivering the fine (150 days for Italian residents and 360 days for foreigners), without any reference to identification of actual offender or anything. Just plain time limit starting from the day the traffic violation was committed.
So, basically I’d like to think I t have nothing to worry about the fine since its way over 360 days from the date of the violation, BUT, your interpretation seems very different from that…. Now I’m wondering how much the notification time can be extended…? And if I don’t officially “receive” (sing for receiving the letter in a post office) the fine, how long they might be trying to contact me… 360 days + then another 360 days and so on, maybe?
I would really appreciate if anyone here knew the details.
Anyway, it was nice to find and read this thread on your blog, Alex. Thanks for that!
Luis, glad you found the info useful. Now, I think that Verbale Fine on line” means, “Details of fine on-line”, although I could be wrong although my Italian law dictionary says that ‘verbale’ means ‘report’ or ‘record’ which seems to make some sense.
I know that the photographs taken by speed cameras can be viewed on-line via the relevant police website – try here: https://secure.comune.pisa.it/tzv/Login.jsp
This info may help:
Numero verbale: ‘Offence number’
(solo il numero senza lettere) ‘(only the number without letters)’
Anno: ‘Year’
Targa: ‘Licence/Registration Plate number’
Data violazione (gg/mm): ‘Date of violation (dd/mm)’
Hope that helps – kind regards, Alex
Keijo, I’m not sure about this – if you look at my original post, towards the bottom, you will see a total time of about 567 days for the police here to get the fine to you. Beyond this, the fine cannot be collected any more, as I understand things. Now, if you refuse to accept the registered letter, well, I don’t know how this affects the situation. If, on the other hand, the registered letter just goes back because you have moved house, then I guess that would be the end of the story, short of the Italian police coming to your country to hunt you down! But I don’t think this is very likely.
I suppose theoretically if you keep on refusing these registered letters then eventually the fine will expire, but you would need to check this with a lawyer or some other expert.
Let’s see if anyone else that visits can help.
Thanks for dropping in,
Kind regards, Alex
I have received a fine notification from Pisa authorities from May 2006. I received this by registered post 16 months (Sept 2007) from the time of the offence. I have been to Italy in May 2007 and hired a car also and did not have an issue hiring a car etc. On the fine notification there is a web address with a photo of the offence… so I think mine is legitimate, however I’m rightly pissed that it’s 16 months later… and it’s for €165.30 and will double withibn 60 days!!!!..
We were in Italy in May 2007, holidaying from Australia, we hired an Avis car in Venice and drove very slowly to Florence, we stopped our car once, in Florence, to ask for directions to our hotel. We arrived at our hotel and purchased parking tickets daily from the hotel which we displayed on the dash of the car for the three days we were there. Three weeks ago we recieved a notice from Avis stating they had deducted 19 euro from our account for a speeding fine, we laughed at this because we drove through Florence at a snails pace.
Today, I, my husband, my sister, and her husband don’t see the humour as we have just recieved not from Avis, but from EMO a fine for 89.85 euro (Moved Around A Restricted Traffic Area Without Authorization.) We went with the traffic through Florence, parked our car for three days,purchased parking tickets, walked, and caught taxis. Our exit from Florence was very stess free, again with the flow of the traffic.
We have all looked at the notice and have considered it could be a scam as the notice looks a little fake, almost as though somebody has cut out three seperate sections and pasted them onto A4 paper and photocopied it.
I tried to go to http://www.emo.niv.it to test the site and my AntiVirus alerted me to a Trojanworm Virus.
I have emailed FOLIZIA MUNICIPALE but have heard nothing back at this stage. We are not sure what to do as the notice states we have 20 days to make payment the letter is dated 2007-09-28.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated
Rhonda, thanks for posting about your situation. I will not respond now, because I feel that I need to think about it a little.
I did try to click on the link you supplied, but I got a ‘can’t find the server at this address’ message, which was odd.
Alas, it appears that simply moving with the flow of traffic is no way of avoiding these ‘restricted traffic zones’, and, the signs are not easy to spot.
Having said the above, I suppose that there is a danger that unscrupulous types have been reading this post and the comments and have decided to set up a nice little scam – perhaps through contacts with the hire companies.
Although I am no expert on this, I have stated numerous times that someone needs to look into this situation, at least so that it becomes easier to establish the authenticity of these fines.
Anyway, I’ll get back to you on this.
Regards,
Alex
PS The guy who posted a few weeks ago accusing me of being part of a scam ring, is making me a little suspicious of his motives – maybe he was part of some scam ring and thought that putting the heat on me would direct suspicions away from him. Just a thought.
Alex,Thank you for your responce, I have done a little work over the past few days. This is what I have found Florence, Pisa, Seina, and Rome, possibly other areas have “Restricted Traffic Areas without Authorization” what this means is that you cannot drive in these cities without Authorization. Apparently the people who live or work in these areas have electronic devises installed in their cars. When you drive through these areas the camera picks up cars without the device and takes a photograph.They then send out fines which I understand,that is the Law.
However, they also, have another law, which is: while tourists are staying within these areas the hotel manager by Law must take a copy of your passport, international drivers licence, and Car Number Plate, the hotel manager by Law must send copies to the local Polizia within 8 days of your stay. So that if a car Number Plate is picked up on the camera they can check against their recording of Authorized vehicles of tourists residing, even if it be a few days.
Looking back the hotel manager did take our passports, Internation Drivers Licences,and Number Plate. We at first thought it odd, he didn’t explain, well maybe he did, he said, I need this so the Polizia, don’t come through the night and take you and your car to (Gaol) Australian (Jail) American) well we laught an agreed it must have been a Terrorist thing and went on with our holiday.
I have today emailed Polizia Municipale Comune Di Firenze, which is a different email address to the one on the Fine Notice, I have sent them details, of the hotel we stayed in and the nights we stayed, also, a copy of the fine.
I must say yesterday I was ready to give up, and finally was able to get to the site to pay the fine, a couple of clicks and there was a photograph of our car however,after another click, I had to agree, that I would allow (I think, I remember) future payments to be deducted from this account automatically for any other fines, well! this was a hire car so, I don’t think so.
I suspect a scam! I may be very wrong. I will let you know what happens.
A week ago, I emailed infoemo@nivi.it with no responce. this is the email address on the fine, my computor asks for received from the reciever, but nothing. Today it came through.
I now need to wait as I have recieved aknowledgment from the email too: Polizia Municipale Comune Di Firenze. Which I sent yesterday, I now need to wait for their comments.
I will let you know what the outcome is, who, knows how long, but I will let you know.
Just in case I lose this blog: my email is xxxxxxxxxxxxx (email address removed by Alex to protect commenter from spam)
Regards
Rhonda
Australia.
Hi Alex
Thanks again… given the fact that I have not received any official notification from the police, I have not offence number… all I have is a charge from the car hire Company, withthe date in which the alledge offence was committed.
What should I do?
Thanks
Luis
Rhonda – Many thanks for the info regarding telling the authorities that you are staying in a hotel within a restricted traffic area. Very useful, and I shall be adding it to the main post, way above here!
Cheers,
Alex
Luis,
Thanks for the thanks! Always appreciated.
As to what you should do, well, I would say move house – sorry! Only joking. I guess that you will just have to wait until the actual fine arrives, although from the experiences of others it is not altogether clear when the fine will get to you. However, on the basis that Hertz have charged you the admin fee, then this should mean that the police now know who you are. In which case, the fine could arrive at any time.
Keep an eye out for a registered letter from Italy, unless of course you happen to get lots of registered letters from here!
All the best,
Alex
Alex, Thank you for your support and also, thank you for removing my email address, I didn’t think about spam until after I had sent.
Regards.
Rhonda.
Today I also got the surprise carryover from the holiday that everyone else has. However, unlike most, I got not one, not two, but THREE of them all from a TWELVE minute period in May.
Apparently in driving to the hard to find hotel in Florence, I managed to hit three of the limited traffic areas and they’re very keen to talk to me about e300 in fines.
I’m going to try to get info and plot where the roads are compared to the hotel to see whether this is valid but really, no matter how genuine the offences are, some leaway needs to be given to tourists at times providing they’re not driving dangerously.
Hi Max,
Sorry to hear about three fines – I think that must be some kind of record here, and all in a twelve minute period.
I certainly agree with you regarding the leeway, but the cameras are rather impersonal, however, if you read Rhonda’s comment above, you will not that if you have pre-booked a hotel within a restricted traffic area you should tell the hotel staff, who should, in turn, advise the local police – will then exclude your car if it ends up being photographed.
I have not looked into this, so I am not sure which cities operate this exclusion idea (which seems reasonable). When I have a spare moment, I’ll try to find more information about this.
Kind regards,
Alex
same fine but from sardignia (travel in october 2006).
I have a look and it permit to find a private society employed by italian police to recover money in all europe.
European municipality outsourcing belong to NIVICREDIT SRL (www.nivi.it).
It seems to be legal … but I m sure that in France the french police come to you ordered by nivicredit to make you pay after the 60 days …It happens to a friend of mine with a fine caught in Pisa.
For myself wait and see …
I just hope to be helpful …
best regards
Stephane
Hi Stephane
Thanks for dropping in and telling us about your situation – everything helps.
Re the use of a private company to collect fine payments, this appears to be quite a common form of outsourcing in Italy, even if it must make people worry about the legitimacy of the fine.
The nivi site looks OK, but it is easy to make a site look OK.
Can you tell us some more about your friend in Pisa? Was he/she caught in Pisa? Did the Italian police come and collect the fine? Or is your friend French, and so did the French police go to his/her house to ask him/her to pay the fine he/she got in Pisa?
Kind regards,
Alex
Hi and thanks for this great blog !
I’m in the same case as Rhonda, possibly caught by a cam in Firenze. Like Rhonda, too, I’ve received a letter from EMO for 92,5 euros. After having a look at the website, it seems pretty fake, a student could have made it !
), and 3 days later I’ve an automatic answer telling me (in italian), that my mail as been forwarded to the competent officer ..
So I emailed the Police Municipality of Firenze (direz.pol.municipale@comune.fi.it) to have a confirmation. First, I have written in english, but after 3 days, no answer … So I have written in french (cause I’m French
Now I’m waiting for an answer …
Best regards,
Johan
PS : forgive me for my english, no problem for reading … but for writing it’s a little bit hard
Well, I have some news back from Florence, Italy.
Email received back from infoemo@nivi.it Which is the email address on the fine.
Dear Mr xxxxxx,
the Hotel Il Granduca where you were staying on the 28 and 29 May 2007 is outside the limited traffic area (ZTL) of Florence, so it wasn’t necessary to enter this area to get to the hotel.
For this reason Municipal Police won’t cancel your fine.
For any further information please feel free to contact us again.
Best Regards
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
I also, sent an email too: Polizia Municipale Comune Di Firenze, with an attachment copy of the fine. This was their responce.
Good morning,
it’ s better waiting for formal notification of fine ( from Municipal Police of Florence ) and then you can decide for payment or appeal.
Best regards.
xxxxxxxxxxxx
email: pm.verbali.notifiche@comune.fi.it
Well! maybe I am wrong but it looks to me that Municipal Police of Florence, didn’t see the attached fine as being official.
The email address for Florence Police:
pm.verbali.notifiche@comune.fi.it
Written by Alex.
“Rhonda’s comment above, you will not that if you have pre-booked a hotel within a restricted traffic area you should tell the hotel staff, who should, in turn, advise the local police – will then exclude your car if it ends up being photographed.”
Alex,
I hope I don’t offend you but I have a problem. I have a degee in history and every quote, must be quoted as it was.
I Wrote:
“However, they also, have another law, which is: while tourists are staying within these areas the hotel manager by Law must take a copy of your passport, international drivers licence, and Car Number Plate, the hotel manager by Law must send copies to the local Polizia within 8 days of your stay. So that if a car Number Plate is picked up on the camera they can check against their recording of Authorized vehicles of tourists residing, even if it be a few days.”
It doesn’t matter whether you have pre-booked a hotel or just driven into Florence, and found a hotel, and spent the night. You were residing in Florence on those nights.
We received an email back from our hotel management saying: Your stay 28-29 May 2007,was registered with Municipal Police of Florence. Please, contact us again if you have more problems.
The four of us were out to dinner last night the matter came up and we have decided not to pay.
I hope this helps.
Regards.
Rhonda.
Hi Johan,
Thanks for the thanks! Let’s wait and see what reply you receive….
Best regards,
Alex
PS Your written English is a whole lot better than my French, written or spoken:-)
Hi Rhonda,
Thanks for the progress update. Re this:
“Rhonda’s comment above, you will note that if you have pre-booked a hotel within a restricted traffic area you should tell the hotel staff, who should, in turn, advise the local police – will then exclude your car if it ends up being photographed.”
The ’shoulds’ should have been ‘musts’!
Re what you said initially:
“However, they also, have another law, which is: while tourists are staying within these areas the hotel manager by Law must take a copy of your passport, international drivers licence, and Car Number Plate, the hotel manager by Law must send copies to the local Polizia within 8 days of your stay. So that if a car Number Plate is picked up on the camera they can check against their recording of Authorized vehicles of tourists residing, even if it be a few days.”
Two things. First, from what I understand all hoteliers in Italy are obliged to supply passport details to local police, but I’m not sure that they are obliged to ask nor to supply driving licence and registration details. If you would provide me with the source of your info, I’ll have a go at checking it out – with the usual caveat – I’m not an expert!
As to not paying – it will be interesting to hear what happens, so, if you wish, could you please let us know by writing here or contacting me through the blog’s contact system?
All the best, and thanks for keeping us posted,
Alex
Hi Alex,
Sorry, I don’t know where I found this site: however, it would have been a government site.
“However, they also, have another law, which is: while tourists are staying within these areas the hotel manager by Law must take a copy of your passport, international drivers licence, and Car Number Plate, the hotel manager by Law must send copies to the local Polizia within 8 days of your stay. So that if a car Number Plate is picked up on the camera they can check against their recording of Authorized vehicles of tourists residing, even if it be a few days.”
OK, what information I have now after many weeks of emailing. An email from Avis Car Rental: I sent them a copy of the fine which we recieved for 90.85 EURO, they sent back: A copy of what the fine should look like, it was very different looking to our fine and it was in Italian not English. They advised us not to pay: The fine they recieved and paid, for was for 19 Euro, including their costs which they, paid, and deducted from our account.
They also, sent a web address to pay outstanding fines: Https://ztl.comune.fi.it/tzv/Login.jsp They told me to try it and see what happens, with the fine we received in the post. I went to this site and put in the information needed: fitting the information on the original fine. My Italian friend reading it said, that it stated: not a valid fine number.
Alex, I am concerned about this but, at this stage, I still think I should ignore, the fine.
Alex, I know you don’t want us to give out our email addresses, because of spam. However, I think if we could all communicate with each other, we will solve this problem. My email address cne25715[at]bigpondDOTnetDOTau
Thank you for your work.
Regards Rhonda.
Hi Rhonda/Alex
First of all: Thanks Alex for your great work on this blog!
Rhonda: I’m currently sharing your problem with EMO and went to the website you mentioned:
“They also, sent a web address to pay outstanding fines: Https://ztl.comune.fi.it/tzv/Login.jsp They told me to try it and see what happens, with the fine we received in the post. I went to this site and put in the information needed: fitting the information on the original fine. My Italian friend reading it said, that it stated: not a valid fine number”
I got lucky when finding the right fine number at the 1st attempt… and immediately saw a picture of my rental car (but no way to pay there). Be careful, you can only access the picture 10 times!
On your EMO letter, the right number is the very last reference mentioned, just after the bank account references. The 1st in the 2 last numbers is a mix of figures and letters: forget it.
For me,the good one looked like: xxxxxxx/xx. I just kept the 7 first numbers and then gave the licence plate number (targa in Italian).
I now know that the fine is for real now but I’m still a bit concerned: should I pay directly to EMO (their website looks like s**t)or should I wait for a more formal fine? (with a risk of paying more I guess).
I’ll eventually have to pay it according to Stephane’s post (I’m French and living in France)
Thanks
Regards
Lottie
Lottie,
Thanks for the thanks! Always nice to know that what I’ve done here – with the help of a few others (Rhonda etc)- is proving useful.
Re paying: Have you actually received a fine? I think so, but this is not all that clear from what you write. If you have got a fine, then if you do not pay within a certain time, the amount will increase.
You are not the first to be worried about the ‘not very professional’ look of the EMO site. The site owners really ought to make it look a little more convincing – but that is another story…
And thanks for the useful info re how to read these darned fines! This should be useful to someone.
Kind regards,
Alex
Alex,
I received a letter from EMO saying that I am about to receive a fine from the municial police of Florence and that I could already pay it on EMO’s website.
The municipal police advised Rhonda to wait for the official fine: “Good morning,
it’ s better waiting for formal notification of fine ( from Municipal Police of Florence ) and then you can decide for payment or appeal. Best regards.” This is why I wanted to wait.
According to the date on the letter, I have to pay before November 1st, and I’ll probably pay via EMO and see what happens.
I’ll keep you posted.
Ciao
Lottie
WE RECEIVED IN OCTOBER 2007 A TRAFFIC TICKET
THAT WE KNEW NOTHING ABOUT. IT STATES, “THE
DRIVER WAS DRIVING ALONG LANES FOR PUBLIC TRANSPORT ONLY”. I HAVE NO RECOLLECTION OF ANY SUCH THING! WHAT DEFENSE DO WE HAVE? I REALLY THINK THIS A SCAM. I CALLED THE ITALIAN CONSOLATE IN LOS ANGELES, THEY WERE OF NO HELP. THEY CLAIMED THIS WAS DONE ON MAY 16, 2007. IF ANY ONE COULD GIVE ME SOME CONSTRUCTIVE ADVICE, I WOULD APPRECIATE IT VERY MUCH.
Hi Conrad,
So you got a fine for driving in a restricted traffic lane. Well, that’s a new one on me!
Where were you when this happened? And does the fine documentation indicate that a photo was taken – so at least you can see some proof that this is not some form of scam – which it could be.
If you like I can email you about this – let me know if you want me to.
All the best,
Alex
I have just received my EMO ‘fine’ for entering the Arezzo restricted zone (like Scag and Jane April 23) on 30 March. We were frankly just plain lost trying to find our way from one side of Arezzo to the other at night and in the rain. ‘Only’ E103 fine but I’ll look out for these money earners in the future! Ciao. Mike
Salve. Should have also said that I tried paying the fine through the EMO website yesterday using the user name and password provide in the EMO letter. Didn’t work. Tride again today – this time the website wouldn’t even come up! Saluti. Mike
Hi Alex
I’ve read all the interesting correspondence on your site and I have also been targeted by the Italian police for a speeding offence of which I was totally unaware.It was in May of this year in the Provincia di Firenze area. Interestingly enough Avis, the hire car company only charged me £6 for supplying the information to the authorities. I haven’t yet decided whether to pay, but the point of my email is that the Municipal Police notice has its address as ‘Via Machiavelli’ I think this says it all!
Regards K
Hi K,
Glad you found the info useful.
As for the address, well, that did make me chuckle!!! Highly appropriate for the living museum. The late Machiavelli has a lot to answer for IMHO!
All the best,
Alex
Hello
April last year I visited Firenze with my family, and got caught 8 times on camera in the “restricted traffic zones”. I’ve waited to do anything about it untill now that I got the real fine( the one you receive after the “notification”)
I’ve talked to these people at EMO a couple of times to get advice on what to do about this.
Appealing, I will probably end up paying the double amount which will be a disaster for my family and I. So this morning I talked to somebody at the EMO who, strangely enough, told me a secret on how to avoid payment…..
I promise everyone who read this and you Alex, that when I’ve tested this method I will tell you all how it works out…
Best regards
Kasper
Hi Kasper,
Thanks for the info. We shall all wait with baited breath the hear about this secret method of avoiding having to pay these fines.
Hope it’s legalish!
And if it works, I’ll think about publishing it here – although anyone who decides to try out such method – must do so at his or her own risk.
Regards,
Alex
Hi Alex,
First of all, THANK YOU for providing a forum for people like me to vent and seek assistance and advice. Now for the nitty-gritty; I am fuming. I received two tickets in the mail this week for fines incurred in July, 2007. I drove through a ZTL twice in the same day and owe EMO nearly 200 Euros
Interestingly, our hotel was in a ZTL (I didn’t know what a ZTL was until yesterday). I am fluent in Italian (my mother’s family still lives there) and I have visited and driven all over Italy many, many times. Never seen these ZTLs before, never received tickets… I speak with a very noticable English accent and I presented my Canadian passport on arrival at the hotel so clearly, there was no mistaking that I am a tourist. When I ask where I should park my car, I would expect the hotel employee to have the common sense (and courtesy) to know that my car probably doesn’t have ‘authority’ to drive through a ZTL so she shouldn’t send me past another camera. She should also have asked for my license plate. I assume that it’s too late for the hotel to call now…7 months have passed.
I just wanted to let you know that when I got my International Drivers License, I received a book with laws and signs specific to Italy which I actually studied. The book I received from CAA (AAA equivalent in Canada) did NOT include the ZTL sign. The “Do Not Enter” is a red circle with a horizontal white line going through the middle – same as it is in North America. I have since notified CAA and AAA of my incident and of their ommission.
I am not saying that tourists should be exempted from these rules – the municipality of Firenze is free to make and enforce any rules they deem necessary. But for a city that relies heavily on tourists for income, they should have considered the fall-out this sort of gouging will have on their tourism industry. DID THEY? HOW DO I LET THEM KNOW THAT THIS IS A BLACK-EYE FOR THEM? It’s a trap really – if your hotel is in the core area of the city, there is no way to avoid these ZTL areas….pedestrian traffic, people double-parked – detours are inevitable!
Imagine had I known what that the ZTL sign meant and tried to stop my car in the middle of a busy street. That would surely upset the people behind me. Italy is not known for their patient or courtious drivers.
I am going to pay the fines as I will be back in Italy in the near future and will be renting a car again. But need some advice on who I can write to to let them know what a negative effect this is having. Any suggestions? I booked three other families for their vacations in Florence this summer. They all want to drive through the wine-country and will have their own cars. I cancelled all three reservations today because of this and am sending them to Trento instead.
Hi Katie,
Glad you found this post useful. The number of people affected by these ztl things never ceases to amaze me.
Anyway, I’ll track down a couple of names and addresses and get back to you. I’m thinking about the head of Florence’s tourist board, local council officer in charge of tourism, and, possibly, the Italian government minister in charge of tourism.
All the best,
Alex
It is good to know that I am not alone. My husband, parents, and I were traveling in Italy in April 2007. We received a total of……………………. 7 tickets! (Oh, and of course 25 Euro fines for each one from Europcar in addition to the 80-92 Euro fines from the polizia. Here is the breakdown:
5 from Florence: 1 for driving along lanes for public transportation only, 1 for circulating on roads reserved to other vehicles, and 3 for circulating in limited traffic areas (those 3 within a 10-minute period)
1 from Verona: driving through a Zone of Traffic Limited where car transit is allowed “only at certain hours of the day”
1 from Pisa: driving in limited traffic zone
The ones from Florence came in English. I called the police, and a woman told me that three of my fines could be removed if my hotel sent proof of my stay. After three rather difficult conversations with limited-English-speaking (but very friendly) ladies at the hotel, I faxed a letter and the copies of the tickets (add $25 + international phone calls…I haven’t received the bill yet!). My hotel tried to get the fines waived, but apparently was 100 meters outside of the restricted traffic zone! The hotel did send me forms about how to appeal the tickets, but, after careful reading, I realized that I would have to pay DOUBLE the fine if my appeals were rejected. I logged onto EMO website, paid the five tickets, have receipts, and feel relieved that at least those are done (although VERY poor!).
The ones from Verona and Pisa are trickier, as they are in Italian. I sent e-mails to both municipalities requesting more information. Verona sent me instructions in English, but I feel unsure as to how they will know that it is our ticket that has been paid…any answers?
Pisa has not responded to my e-mail. Their notification letter is very hard to understand. I gave it to a woman who speaks some Italian, and she could not figure out the instructions for payment. I also took it to the bank with no success.
Anyway, I do think that Italy should be aware that this is NOT good for tourism. I’m not the gambling type, so I am trying to pay the fines…however, I now have NO desire to visit Italy again. I certainly will never drive there again. It’s too bad, really…I loved it when I was there.
That being said, Italian drivers are AWFUL(in my opinion). Most of the time on the roads I was afraid for my life, and I considered it a miracle that we didn’t have an accident while in Italy. We were probably some of the safest drivers on the road, even if we did drive in limited traffic zones! Not to mention how confusing it was to get around Italy or find anything! Whose eyes can be peeled for ZTL signs when you are fearing for your life while trying to find a hotel at night?
I am trying my luck in Ireland this spring. Does anyone know of any similar problems in Ireland?
Sorry for the long post…it feels SOOOOO good to get this off of my chest (even if my wallet is empty).
Hi Becky,
Thanks for the long post! I’m very sorry to hear that you got 7 fines, unbelievable.
And I’m sorry to hear that you will not be coming back to Italy, although I quite understand why.
I’ll try to post a longer reply tomorrow or Monday and how you can make sure that the Verona and Pisa municipalities know that it was you who paid the fines.
All the best,
Alex
Becky,
Re the Verona and Pisa fines.
On the fine notification there should be the word ‘Casuale’, which is a sort of traffic offence reference number, and this reference is usually written on the fine, and it provides information with regard to the date that you were caught, the registration of the car you were in. If you quote this reference code whenever you contact the authorities then they will know what you are referring to. In addition, when you do pay the fines, ensure that the ‘Casuale’ information is included. You may, for example, be able to transfer money from your bank account, in which case there should be a section allowing you to specify why the transfer is being made. In this case write ‘Pagamento di multa Casuale: (Write the reference numnber and the car registration number)’ and you should be OK.
Hope that helps,
Alex
Hi Alex,
Thanks for your help. My husband went to the bank this week to pay the Verona fine (we can’t translate the Pisa one…), and they wanted to charge him $48 just to wire the money. Do you know if they accept bank checks or credit card payments? This is all starting to get ridiculous!
Just received four fines from EMO for driving in a ZTL in Florence last August, all on the same day. We were staying in the heart of the City – how can we check whether our apartment was in the ZTL?
And having read almost the whole of this blog (mind-boggling) I’m still unclear whether anyone has suffered any serious consequences from not paying?
As it is, we don’t plan to go back to Italy. They asked us not to anyway! We were travelling with my wife’s sister and Mum, who carry Indian passports, and when they applied for vias in London we were given 24 hours to produce 1200 Euros in travellers cheques, a copy of my brother-in-law’s passport (he was in India at the time) and a letter from my niece’s school confirming she was a pupil (in August!). Whe we expressed consternation, they told us to visit another country if we weren’t happy. If only we’d taken their advice!
@Becky
Glad to have been of some help.
If you want some help translating the Pisa fine – drop me a mail through the contact system.
As for accepting checks – probably, but sending a check though the post is not reliable. You could try it though. Checks cost less to process than bank transfers, well, they do if they come from the UK, but they can take something like 2 weeks or so to clear – UK bank checks, that is.
A credit card payment seems to be possible re the Florence fine, go here:
http://www.servizi.infogroup.it/multeWeb/Welcome?comune=D612
I got to this link via this site:
http://centroservizi.lineacomune.it/portal/page/portal/MULTIPORTALE/FIRENZE/PAGAMENTI
which looks legitimate.
@Paul,
Try this .pdf map of Florence’s ZTL:
http://www.comune.firenze.it/servizi_pubblici/ambiente/parchi/cartine/ciclo/cartacicl_retro.PDF
As to whether anyone has suffered any serious consequences for non-payment, the answer is I don’t know.
And sorry to hear about your visa hell, but that is Italy for you, either things like this are silky smooth or you hit a bureaucratic brick wall, as, alas, you did.
Sorry to hear you are not coming back, but this is understandable in view of your experience.
Post here if you need more help, and I do my best.
Best regards to both of you,
Alex
BEAUTIFUL COUNTRY AND BEAUTIFUL PEOPLE BUT I FEEL SOILED BY THESE “HIDDEN” NO DRIVE ZONES WITH THEIR OVER ZEALOUS FINES…SO I DO NOT INTEND TO GET DIRTY AGAIN ANY TIME SOON !
Well, add us to the list of the “circulating in restriced traffic zone without authorisation” club. We received a registered letter from the Municipality of Pisa in very interesting English on Feb. 12, 2008 for an infraction on October 8, 2006!!! The fine is 111 Euros, etc. etc. The time of the violation is before we picked up our car, but no longer have any of the “proof” of our arrival. Who keeps that stuff for well over a year. I’m sure this happened when the rental car co. was bringing our car. Thusfar, we have not recieved any charges from our rental car co.(National) We have driven in Italy several times before without problems.
I also tried to see the picture on the web (https://secure.comune.pisa.it/tzv/Login.jsp), but it says that it is not a valid number. The notice we received was dated Nov. 11th and not mailed until Jan 30th.
Any suggestions??
Nancy – the only suggestion I would have would be to contact the hire company and tell them that the time recorded on the fine was before you picked up the car.
At the same time I would write to the Pisa authorities stating that you were not driving the car at the time of the offence and supply them with the name and address of the hire company, as you are obliged to do under Italian law.
Basically if you lend your car to a friend and this friend commits an offence, the fine will come to you, but within a certain time – the limits are mentioned in the main post above – you are obliged to supply the name of the driver at the time the offence took place.
Again, for more info on time limits, look at the main post above – you’ll find everything you need to know – but remember I’m not an expert on this subject.
If you have any further problems post here or use the contact system to get in touch with me, and I’ll see if I can help.
All the best,
Alex
Hello again…
I promised to get back to you on how to avoid paying these fines.
As I mentioned, after getting 8 horrible letters from EMO, I called these bloodsucking people to try to make them realize that I did something wrong without knowing it, and that if no one is there to tell you so, you will keep on doing wrong untill you get the ticket 6-8 months later… (what a beutifull way to make lots of money). And if you try to appeal you will end up doubling the fine, because clearly everybody who got the ticket is guilty!
Well… I talked to a woman who told me the following: ” I can see your problem sir, but I don’t know what to tell you… OK listen…. Do you have a friend or relative who is disabled?”
“No!”(my answer)
“Ok… write a letter in which you tell us that your disabled friend was in the car with you at that time… that you wanted to see the city and you drive around the center of the city to see the churches and stuff… the police will never charge you and they never check these formalities.
Then get your friend to make a small statement in which he says that he was in the car, bla bla….. If he has a hadicap-parking sign I will also need a picture of that.”
After hanging up I was stunned… But when you think about it, the pictures of the car is taken from behind, so they can’t see who’s in the car. And imagine having to find a person among the millions of tourists entering Italy every year. Deffently not something the Italian Police would spend a lot of time doing.
Well, after thinking about it I decided to pay the fines. I have no disabled friend, and I am sure as hell not going to ask someone who knows someone….
So now I have paid the 8 fines, and I’ve become poorer. But when I think of it all: the letters from EMO written in hieroglyphic nonsense, the mystic woman on the telephone and the relieving fact that if I were only a tiny bit more scroupeless I could have avoided paying and cheated this unfair setup, it has been an extension of our Typical Italian experience. ( in a good way)
As I have not tried this, I don’t know if it works for sure and it’s a risk to take. Im sure that if exposed this scam would have some costs.
If everybody says that they had their disabled friend in the car, I’m sure the Italian police will be a little suspicious.
In the other hand I think it’s such a lousy way of pulling out some extras from the tourists and foreigners, that no one should have bad feelings about bending the rules a little to avoid paying.
Kasper
Kasper – many thanks for getting back to us.
Your solution is a 100% Italian way of getting round the problem. Most probably a tried and trusted method.
That you did not try it out shows that you are not Italian! Most Italians would not think twice about using this excuse, and other, even more devious, solutions.
I shall leave your post here for those out there who do have disabilities or travel with disabled people in Italy.
Kind regards,
Alex
Has anyone ever been able to view photos from Pisa violations? How did you do it? If you can’t access the photos online, how can you get them in time to avoid additional penalties.
Where are those folks who were going to get back here after not paying?
I just got 4 from July 2006. Neither my wife nor I ever saw any signs. But we did see signs and photo equipment in Sienna and Firenza.
Now I am wondering if there is more I don’t know about.
Buon Giorno! Okay that’s the only Italian I know
Anyways, I just spent my lunch hour reading this post and it has alot of helpful stuff here. I am desperate because my rental car company notified me that I received 2 traffic violations (aka verbali) in the district of Florence and Pisa. My dilemma is the rental car company sent the Italian authorities an old address that I am not longer at, so I did not even receive the violations at all (my post office confirmed they sent them back to Italy). Anyways, I have been all over the place trying to find someone to get those tickets mailed to the right address to prevent fines and penalties. I emailed both districts with the email addresses i was given, called the US embassy in Florence, and my rental car company wont’ help me. Do you have any clues as to what else I can do? I seem to be spinning my wheels…Thanks so much 
My wife and I were discussing this last night. The citations which I received yesterday were from 13 July 2006. That means at this time they are approximately 575 days from the date of infraction.
From what I see here, and also at this link,
http://my.lifeinitaly.com/showthread.php?t=1921&page=2 it appears that they are too late to have jurisdiction. Look for the post from Arturo near the bottom.
Hey Alex, what is your opinion on this? Can you confirm any information from the link? It seems that there may be new legislation.
I have not yet received any charges from Europcar. However, I have replaced the credit cards (and acquired new #’s) on this account since that date. So the charge may just be delayed.
It also appears that finding out when Pisa contacted Europcar would be a significant little bit of info. Not just when they replied.
@Liza
What a situation! I think that you have already done all that is reasonably possible, and, seeing as you have already emailed your correct address to the Pisa and Florence authorities, I think I would just sit tight. It is now up to the places which issued the fines to send them to the correct address, within the time limits mentioned way above in the post which started all these comments off!
And if the car rental company has charged you some admin fee, I think I would ask them to return it. Officially, you have not received the fines – but you would need a lawyer to confirm this.
So, sit tight and wait until they send the fines to the right address, and if they don’t arrive within the time limits, in your shoes, I would be tempted to ignore them as being invalid. But remember, I am not an expert!
@Rusty,
I had a look at the post, and if it is true, and knowing Italy, it probably is, then probably means everyone can just sit on these fines until the time limit is up. What I’m not sure is when the time limit runs from: the date of the offence or the date of notification of the offence.
Either way, I think the only possible risk would be that you might, although I doubt it, be collared by the Italian police if you come back to Italy and stay in the same area as you committed the offence, or if you used the same rental company.
For most people, paying the rental company admin charges may well be the end of the story. Although, if the reciprocal agreement that appears to have been/is being introduced within the European Union, then European residents may find that their own local motoring authorities may try to collect the fines and will use local powers to achieve this. Those from outside Europe probably do not have to worry. But, please remember that I am no expert on this, and any suggestions I may make are just that suggestions.
As ever, I strongly recommend contacting motoring associations for conclusive advice on this issue.
Please let us know how you get on, or how you sort this issue out.
All the best to both of you,
Alex
Thank you Alex for your quick reply. I agree with you in that I have done all I can do. Maybe you can put this one worry I have to rest. Can the rental car company or the Italian authorities still charge my credit card? That is what the rental car company did, they just charged my credit card and didn’t even notify me. I had to go through all this just to find this out! I have considered canceling my credit card for that reason. Please advise. Thanks for your help!!
Forgot to mention – the rental car company charged my credit card for the admin fee for both tickets. Sorry about leaving that out…
Hi Liza,
In reply to your question: I don’t really know the answer, but I suspect that if you read the small print on the car rental agreement you will find that they can charge your credit card for offences that occurred while the car was in your possession.
However, they should only be able to do this if the fines are still valid – if they are not valid, then you have not, technically IMHO, committed any offence, in which case there is nothing they should be charging you for.
In the above case the fine does not exist, so making you pay would be a bit like asking you to pay for one extra day of car rental when you did not rent the car for an extra day.
However, having stated the above, we are now moving into the realms of contract law, and to be sure you need to know the terms of the contract – and it’s effects under Italian law. I don’t know how, but you would need to take legal advice on this.
Please remember that all of my comments, and ‘advice’ are informal, and need to be confirmed with someone who is a qualified expert. I don’t want you to get yourself in trouble for taking my ‘advice’, and I don’t want to get myself in hot water for offering advice when I am not qualified to do so.
Anyway, after the caveat, I hope you manage to sort this out. I guess you could start by writing to the hire company and asking them to refund the credit card charges, and see how they respond.
Kind regards,
Alex
Thanks Alex.
After a final check with the CA Automobile Assoc., I think I’ll send them a dispute with a double defense. Both the time limit, and a handicapped plaque.
If we go back to Italy, we plan only to visit the Riviera, Milan, and the Amalfi Coast (of course the wife will insist on Venice again). Pisa was nice, but there is so much more to Italy (and from everything I have found on the web, it appears that the authorities in Pisa are abusing this situation).
I’ll try to get back to you with any updates. Your Blog has been the best information on this subject anywhere on the web. MOLTE GRAZIE!
Rusty
Update:
I called CA AAA and they said they don’t know anything. They referred me to the local Italian Consulate.
That was a big waste of time. I specifically asked “What is the Italian law regarding the time frame for a municipality to send notice on a photo traffic violation.” The first guy I talked to said only, “If you do not pay it, maybe next time you go to Italy they will lock you up.” (not an answer to my question) I asked if they had anyone there who knew “the law.” He transfered me to a woman who would only say, “If they sent you the notice, then you have to pay.” (again, not an answer to my question) It was clear from the conversation that she did not know the law because she just kept parroting the same line.
I then went online and emailed the US Consulate in Milan (and some others localities). They sent me back this link.
http://www.patente.it/codice/201.htm
It appears that they needed to reach me in 360 days. It was 375.
I’m still going to use the double defense. I’ll let you know if anything more comes of it.
Rusty
Hi Rusty,
Thanks for the update.
But sorry to hear about the fairly standard reactions, which do not really make anyone’s life easier.
By all means have a go at using the defence and do please let me know if anything comes of it.
Many thanks once again for having taken the time to have posted about your investigations back here.
And, yet again, thanks for the molte grazie – good to hear that this post is helping some people in some small way.
All the very best,
Alex
I got one of the Pisa fines back in June 2006, and got a second notice recently.
Anyways, I contacted the Gardaí (im in Ireland), and they told me that in these type of cases, the rental company should be paying the fine to the Municipal Police directly.
It is then upto the rental company to claim the charge back of the renter, as it is in the lease contract signed in order to rent the car in the first place.
The Gardai have told me to bin the notices, and that they suspect it is some elaborate scam invloving some municipal police administrators.
If Italians were to commit a driving offence in a rented car over here (Ireland), the Gardai would fine the rental company, as they own the car. Its upto the rental company to chase the renter for the reimbursement apparently.
Also the fact that these “fines” can only be paid via Bank transfer stinks of a scam. The money is probably being pocketed by these scammers.
Feck em I say
Hi Dave,
Thanks for the comment.
“Anyways, I contacted the Gardaí (im in Ireland), and they told me that in these type of cases, the rental company should be paying the fine to the Municipal Police directly.”
In answer to the above, I dug out my Eurpocar rental agreement from August 2007 to check this out, and in the General Conditions number 3, it says: The client undertakes:
c) to directly arrange to pay any fines raised against the hired vehicle during the period of the rental and to refund the Lessor any costs incurred in this respect, in addition to any payments made by the Lessor and the administrative charges quantified in the information sheets available at rental offices.
OK, this is only Europcar, but I suspect that other companies have similar conditions – note the ‘directly arrange to pay any fines’ wording.
The Gardai may be right, but how well do they know Italian law?
As for the fact that these fines can only be paid by bank transfer, I’m not sure that this indicates a scam, although it would be interesting to see an auditors report on this ‘income’ and see whereabouts it ends up.
If you do believe this is a scam, then why don’t you bring charges against them for fraud? As long as, of course, you can prove that you did not commit the offence they accused you of. Or you could take this up with the rental company and see how they react. I believe that many rental companies can and do track cars and so they may be able to confirm or deny that you were in the location when the alleged offence was committed.
While I can sympathise with your frustration, and that of everyone else here, until someone manages to prove that these fines are a scam, then they should, technically, be paid.
As I have mentioned before, a Euro MP needs to look into this and at the very least request audited accounts from the local authorities concerned.
And remember, I’m not an expert on this, and although I have quoted directly from a car rental agreement, its conditions may have changed.
If you do decide to bin the fines, then let us know what, if anything, happens next.
Kind regards,
Alex
Hi Alex – just discovered this blog and find it very helpful. I received a fine of 111,00 Euro for “Circulating in restricted traffic Zone” in Pisa. My offense date was June 4, 2007 and the notice arrived at my house on Feb. 16th, 2008 which my wife signed for.
I am within the 365 days so feel I should go ahead and pay the fine, what I am not seeming to find, is helpful information as to how to pay this fine.
I tried to e-mail the contact listed on my offense which is lucia.bigongiali@sepi-pisa.it however my e-mail keeps getting returned as undeliverable so that is no help. (Also makes me feel a bit suspicious).
I see that you found a way to pay fines from Florence on a Web-Site, has anyone found a web site for Pisa where fines can be paid? If not I am concerned about transferring money to the IBAN number listed, how would I ever know that they have received payment and that I am off the hook?
Thanks so much for your help!
Hi John,
Glad you find my little site helpful. Sorry to hear that you have joined the ‘I’ve been fined in Pisa club’.
As for paying the thing, aside from the bank transfer, I can’t seem to find any other method.
What I suggest you do is ring this number: 050 220561 – which is from the SEPi fine collection agency which works on behalf of Pisa, and see if you can confirm the bank details from them.
If I remember well, some way above in the other comments, someone mentions how to check out an IBAN code, so at least you should be able to ensure that it ends up in an official account. And, if you do go down the bank transfer route, remember to write the ‘causale’ reference number somewhere on the bank transfer, along with the date of the offence and the registration number of the car you were in.
Sorry I can’t be of much more help.
All the best,
Alex
Just received an EMO ‘notice of payment before notification’ for a speeding offence in Italy. Should I wait for the official notice and risk additional charges or pay via the dodgy looking EMO website?
Many thanks,
Bill
Hey it’s me again…I just wanted to let you know I did call my rental car broker to see if they got any response from the rental car company about correcting my wrong address so I can get the copies of the tickets mailed to me. The customer rep told me that he has had received 80 calls just this week from people all receiving traffic violations in Italy. He addressed my concern with if my credit card could get billed for the fines and he said that in my contract the Italian authorities nor the Rental car company have the right to do that, the rental car company is only allowed to bill for the admin charges. I double checked my contract and validated that is correct. So in the long run, he explained to me that in other countries like France, if you get pulled over for a minor traffic violation, they will NOT ticket you because they do not want their tourism to get negatively affected. There is really no penalty tourists could get if we didn’t pay, other then added to some sort of list should we ever choose to drive again when we vacation to Italy. Just food for thought…
@Bill
As long as you can find an offence number (causale) somewhere on the documentation you have received, you could attempt to pay the fine via the EMO site.
What you could do, I suppose, is wait for the official notification and then pay the sum mentioned in the first notice – the time limits should run from the issuing of the ‘real’ notice, not the notification of notice!
But, please check this out.
As for the look of the EMO site, they really need to do something about that as many feel that the site is not much more than a front for some scam or other, even if this does not appear to be the case as EMO does appear to be legitimate.
Let us know who you get on.
Thanks for writing,
Alex
@Liz
Thanks for your food for thought!
“There is really no penalty tourists could get if we didn’t pay, other then added to some sort of list should we ever choose to drive again when we vacation to Italy.”
I’d love to know if such a list actually exists. Personally, I doubt it, but if someone would care to prove me wrong, I would not complain.
All the best,
Alex
Alex,
Many thanks for your thoughts. I have now paid via the EMO site. Having entered my details thay appeared to have all the official documentation relating to the speeding incident including a photo of me driving the hire car – couldn’t even blame the wife!
My only real gripe is that its taken them 6 months to fine me.
No doubt my credit card will take a hit from the hire car company for the admin shortly.
Regards,
Bill
Bill,
You are welcome. I have to admit that the existence of a photo reduces the possibility of this being a scam. If it is, it is highly sophisticated! But them webcams have become rather good nowadays! Adds he, mischievously.
As for the time that it takes for this fines to find you, well, that is Italy for you. Things do not move all that quickly here and sorting out these fines will not be a popular task for some minion or other, I bet.
All the best,
Alex
PISA two offences within two minutes of each for being in a (Zone Reglementee) total 222Euro.
We use a Garmin GPS everywhere with no problems ( Except ******Piza!!)
18 months for the fines to come, which were handed to us in the local French Gendarme station, where we had to file a report etc.
These areas are clearly badly marked, making this mistake for the first time in 30 years of driving and then at about 20 MPH whilst looking to park.
Clearly Piza does not want tourists!
I have been notified by letter from Dollar Rental that they debited a fine of 50 Euros from my debit card. A copy of the tranaction is in Italian and I’ve appealed it to no avail. Then – behold! Two registered letters from Pisa which my mail service accepted. 111 Euros each. Same compaint as everyone else.
Wells Fargo says to wire the money cost $49 each plus the fines which are about $175 each. And going up daily. I’ve cancelled the card and won’t be paying these fines.
These people seem like terrorists to me. Anybody hear of weapons of mass destruction in Pisa? We Yanks only need the suspicion, nowadays……
OK, humor aside, I hope they hold their breath til I pay them. Thanks for letting me know I’m not alone.
RE:FEB 11TH…I PAID THE “OVER ZEALOUS” FINE THAT ANNOYED ME SO MUCH AND GUESS WHAT ?…I GOT ANOTHER FOR THE NEXT DAY…NOW I’M REALLY ANNOYED !?
I am handicapped and have a blue handicapped tag. How do I get a pass to drive in those special no drive zones in
Florence and Rome?
Would appreciate any information.
Hi Carol,
I don’t know much about this, but I’ve had a dig around on the internet and come up with some information.
If you are Italian and your handicap is registered, then you can apply to the local commune (council) or Polizia Municipale (Municipal Police – not the Carabinieri or Poliza) for an pass which will allow you to park in the assigned spaces, pedestrianised areas and the zone di traffico limitato (restricted traffic areas).
The badge is valid for 5 years throughout Italy, but to obtain it you would need a certification from the Italian ASL health authority and to have made an application to the mayor. If you are not Italian, nor officially resident in Italy or only here for a short time (on holiday, business etc), then going through the application procedure is probably too time consuming.
What you don’t say is where you are from. If you are from within the European Community, then the blue tag may be recognised, but I’m not sure.
Are you planning on bringing your own car? Or would you hire a car here?
Generally, it appears as though hotels within the restricted traffic zones, if asked, will inform the local police about hire cars. In this case, a fine will not be issued apparently. However, if you drive into a restricted traffic zone you may well get fine, and the only thing you can do is appeal on the grounds that you have a registered handicap, but making the appeal will not be easy and you may well have to pay a car rental company admin charge, so it’s best to avoid the situation.
Let me know where you are from so I can have another hunt around to see if I can find anything useful.
All the best,
Alex
Hi, I am Hungarian, and I got three letters today from an Italian car rental company, with three times 70 EUR fine+3×50 EUR (!!) handling file expenses+VAT+postal taxes. I rented the car in Milan last year, September, and from the attached police letter I see, that all the tree incidents happened on 30th September, 9:10, 9:12 and 9:14 in the Zona a traffico limitato en Milan! The car rental company already tried to debit my banc account with 3 times 141 EUR, at that time I did not know what a hell it is, so I told my bank to cancel my card, and asked a new card. They told me they would investigate if these amount should be accepted or not, so it is a pending, restricted sum on my bank account. From the received letters I can see, that the car rental company already payed the fines. I don’t know what should I do, because I cannot imagine it is justified to fine somebody three times within 6 minutes!!!!
Furthermore it is very bad that the car rental company sent me three separate letter, and 3 times 50 EUR handling expenses!!!
What can I do? Will my bank let the debited sum to be payed to the car rental company? I amvery angry, because we rented the car with three colleagues, and it was a Saturday or Sunday morning, and we could not find our way out of Milan, and we happened to go through this damned zone, but this was not on purpose. (The whole car rental was 120 USD!!)
Imagine when I tell my colleagues that they each has to pay more than 100 EUR half year after the rental!!!
Any suggestion?!!!
I posted some comments back in Sept 07 after receiving a fine from Pisa (almost a year after the supposed speeding incident) – I have heard nothing since from the authorities (having not paid).
A colleague at work has just received notification of a fine from Naples (for not paying a Toll), again after some considerable delay. Quite how you bypass a toll without noticing, seems difficult. Unfortunately for him, the amount was charged to his credit card via the hire car company.
My best guess of what is going on, is a scam involving collusion between the police & hire companies. By ensuring that they only target foreign hirers, they avoid the inevitable flack that would ensue if they nicked locals in the scam.
Many posting on this blogg have stated that the experience (of being scammed) has put them off ever visiting Italy again.
I would offer the following advice to anyone (except Italian nationals) hiring a car in Italy:- ensure that the credit card used to pay/guarantee the hire car, expires or is cancelled within one month from the date of hire. That way, the car hire company cannot take any money (without your permission).
If I ever return to Italy (which I would not rule out), I will certainly take this step to protect my money.
Mike,
Do please write to your Euro MP about this. We need some investigative journalist to look into this.
As to your idea re credit cards, not bad. Let’s see if someone gives it a go.
All the best,
Alex
I received a fine ticket. I would like to pay but the username VO28AC1921 and Password are not valid in your system. Please let me know how to pay and proceed. My wife and me arrived late in Siracusa, we were starving and looking for a place to eat in Ortiga. I do not recall to break the law at any moment. Anyway I am willing to stop this fine.
Yours sincerely,
Federico Sanchez
I recently too received notice of a violation in Florence. The letter from the EMO stated: THE DRIVER WAS DRIVING ALONG LANES FOR PUBLIC TRANSPORT ONLY
Firstly, I’m not exactly sure what that means…but after reading through these posts, I’m somewhat at ease that I’m one of many to get something like this.
My problem is that I can’t find any evidence on the EMO website – http://www.emo.nivi.it or the other website suggested in other posts for Florence – https://ztl.comune.fi.it/tzv/Login.jsp of my violation. I would never agree to pay a fine unless they have some photographic evidence from a camera or a police report that I violated a law.
I can log into the EMO website just fine, but there are no attached documents showing an official violation. The other site does not recognize the “Numero verbale” which I was assuming were the numbers in the EMO protocol code – Pxxx/ALxxxx (7 in total).
In the Trip Advisor thread – http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g187895-i68-k1475356-o100-Traffic_ticket_scams-Florence_Tuscany.html
Someone suggests to mail the Prefetto. This thread suggests that I should contact the Polizia Municipale via registered mail…should I try to contact both? (not really sure what the Prefetto is).
I wasn’t going to pay the fine until I get more of an official notice so if anyone has any suggestions, I’m open to hearing them. Else, I’m going to mail off the letters and see what happens.
“I received a fine ticket. I would like to pay but the username VO28AC1921 and Password are not valid in your system.”
I hope you have not tried to pay the fine on this site!
If you are having password problems, I suppose you could try writing and asking for another one.
Are you sure you have the right fine payment website?
All the best,
Alex
Woo hoo! I, too, have joined the “Vehicle circulated in limited traffic area without authorization” club. Only this one is in Florence (Firenze), I think – PZA Vittorio Veneto-LNO Amerigo Vespucci. Anyway, this is enough to make one’s blood boil. Notification six months after the supposed infraction!
I think what should happen is we refuse to pay and put the pressure on the car rental agencies to come up with the money for any fines. And deny any charges to credit cards if they (the rental agency) tries to assess against us. It might send a signal to them loud and clear to inform their customers of problem areas/thinks to look out for and for them to put pressure on the local authorities to ease up on tourists. I swear.
Of course, this is my civil disobedience coming out. I, too, don’t condone non-payment of fines when they are “just”.
As to my fine, I’m not certain what I’m going to do, yet. I’m wondering if I’m going to see some more of these for driving in areas I didn’t know I was supposed to avoid. And I’m sure I’ll be seeing something from my credit card company for some bogus admin charge.
Thanks, Alex and others, for all the good information and discussions.
april 25 I recieved a ticket in the mail from a trip in oct 07 .circulated in limited traffic area I went to emo there was a picture of rentel cr lic. two days later i recieved another ticket 1 hr after the first this happend in florence should i pay what happen if i do not? roscoe
Hello, i have just received a notice from EMO informing me that I Violated the highway code. This was almost ove a year aog so they have sent it just in time. I rang to pay the fine and was told to do it via BACS (in which I would incur a further charge of 20 EUR!) or do it via the website. I am unable to do it via the website as Im haveing trouble finding it!!! when I type the address, it brings up pages such as yours. Can you help me???
Kind regards.
Kate.
First, my apologies for having neglected this discussion.
Now, Roscoe, if you are still following this, you will find that the consequences of not paying have come up a few times above. In summary, it is not all that clear what, if anything will happen if you don’t bother paying up, although the fine will increase – that is certain.
Theoretically, those resident in Europe may have their own motoring authorities hounding them for payment, but I don’t know if this has happened yet.
Kate,
This link will take you to the EMO website:
http://www.emo.nivi.it/Default.aspx
I have to admit though that the site looks as though it has been designed by a 10 year old, and handing over money to such a site may well leave you wondering if you have just added a few beans to someone’s Porsche fund…
The company behind the EMO site is Nivi Credit:
http://www.nivi.it/index.php?s=index
It does appear to be legitimate, but anyone can build a web site.
If the fine notification did not come by registered letter – throw it away.
Regards to both – and sorry for the delay,
Alex
PS When is someone going to investigate this matter??
Alex,
A few days ago I received 3 letters in the mail stating that I was in violation of the Highway Code. It further stated that “The vehicle circulated in limited traffic area without autorization,” in Florence. Before leaving on our trip I studied up on the road signs, even printed out a copy to carry with us, as well as numerous websites and travel books. We followed Frommer’s maps, as well as a CA AAA and maps purchased in Italy. None of the above stated mentioned any sort of zone or violation. It is funny because I have to rely on maps for my line of work and I know that any sort of legitimate violation would be clearly stated, on maps and road signs. By the way, Italy was beautiful, but the drivers are a bit crazy, the roads are not clearly marked, and I don’t remember seeing those signs. So, until I receive proper notification from the issuing authorities, I’m not going to pay them. I would rather directly donate my fines to one of the museums, rather than an outsourcing company collecting for Polizia Municipale. I know there are very absurd laws in CA, but this is a joke, that clearly targets “blindly-led toursits”. So, I guess I will have to wait 5 or so years to go back to Italy, but who says I will. There are a lot of other places in the world that would welcome me and not rape me on the way out.
Just received two 91.80 Euro tickets for driving on restricted streets in Florence in May of 2007 while trying to find my hotel. In view of the number of such incidents reported on this site alone, there must be thousands of these notices going out every year. With the importance of the tourist industry to Italy, there may be a backlash against this if enough people protest.
Here’s an even interesting one:
We arrived in Pisa on 19 of December 2007, and relatives waited for us at the airport.
Because we had a lot of luggage, we rented a car in the airport from Thrifty and drove to Vaglia (via Firenze), where our relatives live in two cars. My relatives drove in their car and we with the rental behind.
Yesterday, after 6 months, we got two tickets (10 minutes apart) in Firenze for those stupid restricted traffic areas. The interesting part is that our relatives didn’t receive any tickets!!! And they don’t live in that area (they actually live in Vaglia).
That tells me the nazi pigs that made these rules have preferential treatment for tourists. What idiots! They really don’t understand that they practically take away food from the mouth of their citizens by treating tourists like that.
To the opposite, couple of years ago we were in Canada and got caught over the speed limit right before entering Ottawa. The cop didn’t give me a ticket because I was a tourist and instead he told me: “Welcome to Ottawa!”.
I just paid about $450 in fines and fees and I will make sure I don’t ever set foot in Italy or buy italian products. Beside the remains of old civilizations, today’s Italy stinks anyway …
I foresee at some point a class action suit against this country … I will save my tickets for that …
I guess i just joined the club. i visited Italy in the beginning of April for a few days, had a nice time and no tickets. well yesterday i received a letter in the ail from avis stating that i got a traffic fine and that they have charged my credit card with the administrative fees,sent my information to the authorities and also sent me a copy of the fine which is in Italian and for the life of me don’t know what it’s for but it’s 148 + 10 euro and it’s from comune nibinonno. I don’t know what to do, don’t know if it’s legitimate or what. what will happen if i don’t pay it?
Just an update on my earlier posts on this site:-
Received notification of a motoring fine in September 2007, for an offence in October 2006 (in Pisa).
I did not respond to the notice, it is now August 2008, I have heard nothing more – I guess the scammers know that they are not going to get any money out of me and have given up.
Man, this is outrageous.
This page goes on forever.
I live in Belgium, went to Pisa last year in August. Yesterday two letters from within 15 minutes from eachother came for this well known restricted trafiic zone scam.
Really, that’s what it is. There are signs enough in the european traffic rules.
And I was scrutenizing the signs all the time that day, since I was accidentally ‘pushed’ into the city by the chaotic traffic behind me, and trying to find a way out of there.
And their roadsigns are far from clear.
226 euro’s for just entering by accident.
They don’t get a cent from me. Even if they have to drag me to jail for it!
Someone really has got to inform some authorities about this. Appearantly, it’s going on for a long while now, and it’s clear that they’re making a profit. I say, nobody pays in this specific situation.
Who the hell do they think they are.
This page goes on forever, and seriously, isn’t it time we bundle all! international issues of this kind and do somethign about it?
Kurt,
What can I say? People come to Italy for a nice relaxing holiday and to see the sights – and come away with a fine. This leaves them feeling cheated, and will put people off coming to Italy, at least by car – which, seeing as Italy is not exactly the cheapest holiday destination, is not a great idea.
These horrible limited traffic zones are more aimed at local traffic than tourists. Foreign motorists, and hire car drivers should be excluded automatically. However the sad fact is that foreign motorists are much more likely to pay these fines than Italians.
It’s not right, I know. Get your local Euro MPs on to this. Heck, they are paid enough, so get them to do something useful for a change.
As for not paying – please let us know what happens.
All the best, and thanks for commenting,
Alex
Hi all,
I was fined for driving (Aug 07)in a restricted zone in florence, paid this via the website wich did have a photo of me driving through a signed area, silly me, no idea at the time what the signs were!
Just recived another for Pisa, I do not recall driving into a restricted area here and am know worried of being the subject of a ’scam’ after reading all the issues on this page. plus im sure the florence ticket was for far less than the 111 euros this one is for.
Ps, does it count if they spell GREAT BRITAIN, as grait britain on the bottom of the form.
Phil
Hi,
Just received 2 fines one at 15:33 and another at 15:37 both for 118 Euros!
We were in Pisa at the time and drove from the city center out to the coastal motorway and did get slightly lost on the way but never went very far from the main road.
We were in Rome last July so this fine has taken 13 months to get to my partner’s Mum’s house, where he used to live years ago.
What should we do?
Just joined the happy Worldwide band of Pisa lovers! Two fines totalling 226 Euros for offences in Via Roam Pisa over 12 months ago. Not sure if anyone has got anywhere with complaining to their MEPs but might give it a go. Certainly my plans to go back to Italy in 2009 are now over so they can wave goodbye to the 1000’s of Euros that that would have cost me and benefitted them. Hope someone from the Italian authorities reads some of this stuff but probably not.
@ Phil and Leigh,
I think, and this is only a suggestion, that the best strategy, if you were not transporting registered invalids or do not have a written record of a firm booking with a city centre hotel, would be to write to the authorities in English, simply asking for confirmation that these fines are not scams. Explain that you saw no road signs and that you were passing through, and then wait for a reply. My suggestion would be to not pay up until you have received a satisfactory reply – in perfect English.
If you were carrying registered invalids or had a firm city centre hotel booking, then send evidence of this, stating that you wish to contest the fine. Always in English, or your own language. If the Italian authorities have the capability of sending out fines in languages in other than Italian, then they must also have the capability of managing all aspects of fines sent out in languages other than Italian. At least this is my opinion.
Indeed, keep sending requests in English. I suspect that replying will cost more time and money than these fines are raising. You could even mention that you have reported this matter to your Euro MP, and until he or she confirms that these fines are legitimate – poor spelling and any other errors could well be a sign that a scam operation is active – you will not pay. And when writing, demand, yes, demand, some valid form of identification from the authorities concerned, it’s up to them to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that the fines are legitimate and not scams – in Italy for most things you need to do here you must produce a passport or other valid identity document – so you should be within your rights to demand the same from them, after all, it’s only fair, and what is done here.
If the authorities are not capable of proving that these fines are legitimate, then there is no reason why they should be paid.
The Pisa, and other Italian, authorities are relying on the ignorance of foreigners. If enough people bombard them with letters requesting info in English, then they may find their strategy backfiring.
Remember,I am not a lawyer, so my opinions are suggestions, and no more – everything I state here needs to be checked out and confirmed. What you do is your decision – but I do recommend contacting motoring authorities for advice. I do not want to get you or myself into trouble.
@Lawrence – welcome to the club! And these fines seem to be on the increase, and for increasing amounts too.
Are the Italian authorities reading this? No. They just don’t know English well enough – but I’d love to be proved wrong on this!
Spread the word about these fines, as this blog post has been doing. If enough people here make a fuss, tell others to avoid Italy, and decide not to head for Italy on holiday themselves, then Italy will do something. Don’t hold your breath though – things move really slowly in the Living Museum.
Good luck to you all, and let me know how you get on,
Alex
I wrote the authorities (Polizia Municipale) in Florence a letter in English pleading my case. In my situation, there was no photographic proof that I violated a restricted zone, however they told me that an officer wrote an actual ticket. I told them that I wouldn’t pay the fine unless they could provide evidence (a copy of the ticket issued by an officer) that I violated the law.
The response I got was that the sent me another infraction in their reply! They never produced any evidence from the first infraction which they stated they had.
I have no intention of paying the first fine as they still have sent no evidence of a violation. The second fine I find even more ludicrous being that it was issued only after I tried to dispute the first charge.
Its been about 2 months and I haven’t heard anything, but that doesn’t surprise me with Italian government. My bet is that they cast very wide nets on foreigners and assume some will pay and some won’t. Also from what I understand, these notices from the EMO are not actually tickets, just notifications of a traffic violation. The theory is that if you pay off the EMO the charges would be less if you were issued an actual ticket…at least thats my personal understanding. If the EMO fine notifications were legally binding notices, they would be sent over registered mail.
That being said I’m also not a lawyer.
Hi Chris,
Did you receive the ticket? Actually being stopped by a real person probably indicates that the offence did take place.
But, if nothing was sent via registered mail, then it would be difficult for them to prove that you actually got the fine, or rather, notification of fine.
The ‘extra’ fine is what is issued in the event that a contention is considered invalid.
You are right, EMO is a collection agency. This fact in itself may make all the fines or fine notifications unlawful.
What we need here is a lawyer. Sooner or later a lawyer who has been caught out will happen upon this post and the comments, and, hopefully, let everyone know what, if anything, can be done.
It would be interesting to hear from someone, anonymously, who has not paid up, and has had nothing happen to them – especially if said person has returned to, and stayed in, the same area of Italy in which the alleged offence was committed.
As I’ve mentioned before, I have no idea as to the lengths Italian authorities will go in seeking settlement of fines.
I’m still waiting to hear of UK drivers who have been fined via the DVLA for offences taking place in Italy. There was supposed to have been some kind of link up, but I’m not sure what has come of it.
Calling all lawyers!! We need you!
Cheers,
Alex
What I meant in my earlier post was that for my first ‘offense’, I received a notification in the mail last November. I was never stopped by an officer in Florence, nor had reason to believe I committed any traffic violation. They merely told me over mail that the reason why there was no photograph of my vehicle was because an officer issued a ticket, sometime after the fact when I wasn’t present. They failed however to provide a copy of that ticket as evidence.
The additional fine was a notice of a new traffic violation (in addition to my Florence fine), in Imprunetta. They actually had an illegible photograph on the EMO website for that one. What was strange is that they included that directly in their mail response to me – doesn’t sound to me like proper protocol for issuing a new fine. I would think that one fine would be completely independent of another fine and should be dealt with separately.
Either way, at this current time I will not pay either violation. They certainly haven’t done much on their way for providing “burden of proof”.
Hello
i was just wondering, if i was on vecation in Italy and rented a car with GPS, (without any knowleg on where i can and cannot drive exept waht is the GPS showing me, the can i sue the renting company or the gps company for showing me the way throu the restricted area???
p.s. sorry for my spelling
@Chris – not sure if they can issue a ticket without giving it to you, although that’s what the speed cameras do. Push them – insist on seeing a copy of the actual ticket. Claim that you believe they are scammers, which is possible, and you will report them to Interpol or the FBI.
The reaction should be fun!
Insist on everything from them being via registered post – no email. I believe you are in the US, so this will be more expensive. Or insist on emails having real authorisation. Ask for documentary proof validated by the Italian embassy in your country that they are who they say they are.
I don’t think these things are scams – but there is a slim chance that this is the case.
@Rafi – I don’t think your idea would function. GPS devices are not officially certified, as far as I know. Read the small print. Nope, suing the rental firm would not work – they cannot decide where you drive their cars, within limits.
Rental cars do sometimes have GPS tracking systems. These can, theoretically, be used to establish where you were on a particular date and at a specific time. This could get you off.
Best of luck – but I do think reporting these things on the basis that they are scams may have so effect. I’d also like to see some evidence of just where all this fine income is ending up.
Alex
Hi Alex,
Do I detect a change of attitude over the months since you started the thread concerning Traffic Violations in Italy?
Are you becoming a tad rebellious/frustrated/outraged/bored?
Recently, my wife got her first ticket 13 months after stopping her car in a restricted area in Pisa following a call from my daughter in the car behind informing her that I had just been hit from behind by an Italian driver.
I will be taking your advice and writing to the local MEP (heaven knows who will pay attention to an MEP from N Ireland) and I will write to the local authority (in Irish maybe?) and see what happens.
I will keep you informed. Thanks for all the postings.
Peter
Hi Peter,
Yes, I think you have detected a slight change in attitude. I guess I just want to see something done.
This issue is smouldering along, and seems to be getting worse. If it is a scam, then someone is doing well out of it.
And yes, write to them in Irish, stating that if you do not hear anything back from them within 30 days, then you will consider the fine a scam and not pay it.
Try your MEP, but he or she is probably too busy attending functions and eating to bother looking into this.
Let me know what happens, and thanks for the thanks!
Cheers,
Alex
Two thoughts from California, land of the non-conforming:
1. I suggest complaining to the Italian Tourist Board. Judging by the volume of protests on this thread, we could raise panicked memories of the sightings in the North of Hannibal’s elephants. enit.it is a good starting place for the Tourist Board
2. Returning to Italy with tickets still outstanding could lead to complications. The procedure employed seemed to rely on the passport information provided by the hotel keepers, thus registering under the name of one’s innocent companion would seem prudent. A further screen might be provided by using names to register like Count Vronsky and Anna Karenina.
Hi Tony,
I thought California was riddled with nearly as many laws and regulations as Italy;-)
Joking apart. Complaining to the Italian tourist board sounds like a good idea – but Italy gets so many tourists, the board may just ignore complaints – unless the press pick up on this and start blackening Italy’s tourist reputation. I think articles in major tourist mags would be more effective.
As for point 2. Yes, this is my worry. It is possible, though knowing the level of computerisation in Italy, unlikely, that passport control, at airports – no borders for those coming by car – could flag you as being a naughty non fine payer.
As for registering in someone else’s name – no go. Italian hotels should take copies of passports off everyone staying. You would need a fake passport! And to book hire cars with fake documents too!!
The Italian authorities seem to have little problem finding addresses to send fines to – as is evidenced here.
In light of the above, I feel that bad publicity is possibly the best weapon. Get journalist friends to wade through everything here, and write articles on Italy’s latest tax or scam.
All the best,
Alex
UPDATE:
Back in March 2008, I sent my letters to the Guidici de Pace de Pisa with the double defense against the violations. My defenses were:
1. I was traveling with my handicapped mother in law and went into the “Zone” to drop her off at the Duomo, and later returned to pick her up. I sent them a copy of my Mother in Law’s Handicap Parking Placard.
2. Their notice arrived beyond the time allowed within Italian law (as proven by the registered mail receipt – see previous posts for specific info and links).
I had four citations, as I got lost returning to the Duomo, and circled around a couple of times.
I received proof of delivery for my registered letters within two weeks of sending them to the Guidici de Pace de Pisa. I have not received any reply as of this date.
At this point, I am assuming that “no news is good news” because if my defenses had failed, the fines would have doubled. One would think that they would send me an additional notice attempting to collect the additional funds. However, there is no way for me to know for sure without calling Pisa, and speaking to someone who I can not fully communicate with.
If they send me any additional, correspondence, I will let you know. For now, I would like to believe that it is a closed matter.
If you know someone who is handicapped, get a copy of their placard, and use this defense.
Good Luck!
Rusty
This problem of gaining fines inadvertantly seems very familiar. We holidayed in Italy July 2007………..had a hire car………drove into the middle of Pisa……obviously(though not purposely)drove into one of these restricted zones. We received a letter from the car hire company saying they’d given our details to the pisa authorites for which they’d charged us. (5 months later)
A few months later a notification letter was recieved to tell us we would be fined and what this space for another letter telling us how much money to send.
We’re now in September 2008, and that letter has just appeared.WE have to pay 113 euros , rising to 185.50 euros if not paid within in the 1st 60 days. After reading this blog, we are not alone. far from it!
The worrying thing is that inorder to pay the fine is going to cost us an admin fee for setting up a Swift payment.
Has anyone else paid thse type of fines using any other method?
Any advice would be useful……..
Alex, and all. Greetings! So glad I found this site as my story is an exact replica of many of the above like Christine’s. Yesterday, I had my 113 Euro fine letter but earlier in the year I had a strange deduction from the rental company (Hertz) which I queried as I assumed it was some kind of ploy to extract a bit more from me 6 months after I had given the keys back. I cancelled the card as well to stop any more of this mischief.
Anyway, I was in Pisa and I had no inkling of entering a restricted zone. I think the level of the fine is grossly disproportionate and the business of leaving it as long as possible (I was in Pisa in July/Aug ‘07) seems to me a deliberate scheme hoping that you have forgotten by then but they are legal (just!). Lots of others seem to have this very long delay between the violation and the letter.
I have a picture of the car and agree with the dates so I cannot dispute the event but I am going to challenge this in some way.
Folks, please keep the ideas and experiences coming and Alex keep up the good work!
@Christine – Pisa is a pain. Credit card payments can only be made by Italians, as far as I can tell.
@Greetings to you too! Sorry to hear about, yet, another fine situation.
To both of you:
Remember that those transporting registered handicapped people can avoid having to pay.
If the notifications are not in perfect English, and I do mean perfect, then this could be grounds for accusing them of scamming you.
When writing, explain that the signs are just not clear to non-Italians.
When writing, try using some nice tough idiomatic language and mix in some slang for good measure. This will slow then down, and if you receive replies that are in bad English, fire off a letter accusing them of scamming.
Demand identification from them – ask for a photocopy of an Italian ‘carta d’indentità’ – ID card. If they refuse, then accuse them of scamming.
The more admin time they waste on these things, the less likely they will be to fine non-Italians.
Italians detest hassle, and will give up after a while – that’s how Italians get themselves off fines!
They should not put up the fine while it is being disputed. They should put the original on hold until the dispute is resolved, although this does not appear to be the case.
Accuse them of breach of privacy too. That should produce some fun responses, and you could try xenophobia, and infringement of human rights too.
Send long and complex letters, listing 20 or so points you want answers to.
The more people write, the better.
And remember folks, I am not a lawyer, any suggestions here are for fun only. I don’t encourage you to waste peoples time. Whether you do so, is up to you.
Let me know what happens,
Alex
Like Ian, above, I received yesterday the same 113 euro fine for driving in restricted zone in Pisa August 2007 (having also been charged a mysterious sum by Hertz in Feb 2008). In a response to an email sent yesterday to the address shown on the document, I am told that the restriction sign is international and common to all countries in Europe. However, there is nothing quite the same in the current British Highway Code book. Have the authorities been informed of this, and is it a possible defence?
“However, there is nothing quite the same in the current British Highway Code book. Have the authorities been informed of this, and is it a possible defence?”
Interesting, Maureen. Perhaps, if you can prove that the signs do not conform to European regulations, you could have a way out.
Would not help non-Europeans though.
Alex
As a result of Maureen’s observation re road signs, I’ve been hunting for info.
I’ve not found much to go on – these ZTL signs do not seem to exist in the UK, as Maureen stated.
The red circle is correct, but it seems rather small on the Milan versions of these signs – photo way, way above. Perhaps this is something that could be looked into, as could the height and positioning of the signs – such as distance from other signs. In Italy, there is a tendency to create small forests of road signs – not sure if this is OK by European rules. Worth checking out possibly.
Of course, all the road signs could be changed.
We need a road sign expert, or to send a European commission on a freebie to check this out.
Italy changes things slowly, and often local by-laws change before adjustments to road markings and signs are made. I know an Italian who got away without paying a fine after pointing out that changes in rules meant she could not be fined.
Some thoughts,
Alex
I too have just received the dreaded “Circulating in restricted traffic zone without authorisation” fine of 113 Euros, also done in a rented car from Hertz. Between this, Hertz’s fines for providing information to the authorities, and a ridiculously poorly advertised fine in Rome, I simply blown away by Italy’s anti-tourism character.
I have attempted to get the photographic proof of my violation (which I’m certain happened because from what I’ve seen on other websites, Pisa has done a fantastic job of making it so no one from out of town will understand they are violating the traffic laws while apparently fining people for challenging or even questioning their traffic violations), but have been having trouble. The English translation they sent does not make clear what the Numbero Verbale is. I have Nr. of form: 01116215 / 2007 Pr. 201089/2007, but I have entered every combination I can think of and no record comes up.
This is an offence from 1/8/2007 which I just received today… Italy has certainly put a sour taste in my mouth for a long time, and I’m not certain why they should care to do so.
Thank you for this blog! It’s great (and sad) to see so many people having a similar problem as me. If anyone ever does successfully challenge one of these tickets, please let me know!! Also, if anyone has not paid the fines for a long time, did Hertz charge them?
I (here in California) just received three notices of “Circulating in restricted traffic zone without authorisation” with a fine of 113 Euros each. They took place within a twenty minute time frame while I was trying to find a parking place near the Duomo. I don’t remember any signs restricting entrance and I was always with other vehicles, so assumed I was OK.
I am going to take Alex’s suggestion and write to the Provincial Governor (listed on the paper) asking for verification, etc. If anyone else has ideas of how to fight this please let me know.
“The English translation they sent does not make clear what the Numbero Verbale is. I have Nr. of form: 01116215 / 2007 Pr. 201089/2007, but I have entered every combination I can think of and no record comes up.”
Mine looked something like that too. I finally figured out it was the numbers on the left, but without the leading zero (1116215) in your case. Hope that helps.
Jacob, I too tried many combinations of numbers for the numero verbale and I finally figured it out. It requires seven digits of the Nr. of form and you drop the first 0. In your case, try 1116215. The photo shows only the license plate of the car. It does not show you going through a restricted area. I’m debating whether to pay the fine as mine was from June of 2007 and I just got the infamous notice yesterday by regular mail.
Thanks for the help. Yes, the photograph is not exactly helpful, is it? I suppose I was the driver of record for that date, so there’s not much too argue. I will warn you that from other websites (and as noted by others earlier in this blog), they do raise the fine if you challenge it and lose.
So, be careful regarding writing the provincial governor.
Virginia,
I think that looking at Alex’s earlier descriptions the one year clock starts ticking when the authorities receive your details. So that would be when presumably the hire company passed them on.
What I see a distinctly fishy is the way all these notices appear just within the legal one year limit. Why not tell you soon after they receive the info from the hire companies?
Hey Alex,
Nice website. Thank you for your information. I too, am a victim of Pisa’s surveillance camera, alledgedly driving in a “restricted traffic zone without authorization” The fine is 113 Euros! WOW!I have no clue what I did? I tried to bring up “the photo” and have NOT been succesful with that operation. Can you advise how I do that? Anyway, I am querying two of my Police friends in Italy on how to handle this summons. I will let you know their response. Anyway, I would appreciate any information on the validity of this summons and how I could best resolve the situation. Thank you, Bob Pattwell ( Ironically a retired Sergeant with NYCPD)
Wow, this is a very common problem, it seems like. I just received my 113 euro fine, again for driving in a “restricted traffic zone without authorisation.” Bob, if you find any kind of resolution, it would be much appreciated. Ethan
@Jacob,
“they do raise the fine if you challenge it and lose.” – Yes, this is not nice – done to encourage people to pay up and shut up. Sounds like human rights infringement to me.
@Ian,
“What I see as distinctly fishy is the way all these notices appear just within the legal one year limit. Why not tell you soon after they receive the info from the hire companies?”
– Yes, I agree, could be typical Italian sloth, or something else…
@Bob,
Gald you like the site!:-)
Seeing as you are a retired NYCPD policeman with police friends in Italy, you should be able to provide us all with some concrete advice. We all look forward to this, and thank you in advance.
As for not being able to bring up the photo – if you have managed to register and login, then I don’t know. If there is no photo, there is no proof – enter attempted scam.
Regarding the validity of the summons, I’m telling everyone to demand some form of identity declaration linking these authorities to Italy. If they cannot prove that they are legitimate, then why should you pay?
Again, though, I aint no lawyer. We need an international lawyer prepared to do a bit of pro bono work!
Here’s to hoping.
@Ethan,
Please read my replies for September 2008 for a few suggestions as to how you may handle this fine.
Kind regards to one and all,
Alex
I have emailed, as suggested above, to ask for proof of identity of the company collecting the fines ‘for my lawyer’ and also for photographic evidence of where the restriction notice was displayed in relation to where the photo was taken, as I, too, was travelling with other vehicles towards the Duomo having just picked up our car – maybe others could try the same? Re the time limits, their email reply states “Time and Way to send a infringement:
if you have rented a car by a rental company, we have 360 days from the date of that rental to use your personal details.( the rental company give s us a copy of your rental contract). If we respect these times the fine is legal.” My letter from them states two dates – 19/8/2008 and 29/8/2008 and we returned from Italy on 2nd Sept, so they may not actually have used my details within the 360 day period.
Hi Maureen,
It will be interesting to hear the response to your email. Beware though, that emails can become ‘lost’ – ensure you receive a receipt – indeed insist on it.
“Time and Way to send infringement” , does not good English sound. And “If you have rented a car BY a rental company” is not correct ‘by’ should be ‘from’.
One other thing, do check your rental agreement -as should everyone – if there is not a clause stating that you waive your rights under Italian privacy laws, then the rental company cannot share your personal information. Even if they do, then the document transfer system should be secure. Otherwise, this kind of information could fall into the wrong hands, or be tampered with.
Re time limits, as I understand Italian law on this subject. The time limit starts from when the fining authority receives your details – as being the person who committed the offence. However, if they state themselves that this is not the case, then then they may be wrong.
If you read information in the main post, and the comments from Rusty, you will discover that the lovely Italian authorities may have up to 2 years to collect fines.
Do remember that I am not a lawyer, and any information is merely personal opinion backed by some research.
All the best,
Alex
Alex – are there blatant “speed traps” in Italy?
Just FYI, here in Las Vegas, the local police conduct all kinds of speed traps and set-ups in various parts of the city.
They do this heavily in the older, more crime-ridden parts of town, presumably the thinking here is that if they catch a random speeder in those areas, he’s more likely to be a criminal violating a court warrant for something much bigger, like a drug rap.
But even in the newer, more upscale parts of Las Vegas and environs (e.g., where I live in Henderson), I’m starting to see police speed traps… usually police cars or motorcycle cops “hidden” on a side street, alley, or in a shopping center parking lot, poised to pounce on a speeder on some quiet street as the unwitting driver passes by.
Just wondered if this kind of stuff happens in Italy. I haven’t seen any of this there, as it doesn’t seem a very “European” thing to do… but knowing how much Europeans love to copy American tactics, I wouldn’t be surprised if this doesn’t happen soon.
I am another victim of Piza. What’s kind of funny about my situation is that I saw the sign and knew I shouldn’t go down this road , but there was a beeping Italian behind me. I continued only to get caught in a maze of narrow back roads that took me 30min to get out of, it was one of the great stories of my trip. My rental car company sent me the bad news along with a picture of my car and plates about 2 months after the fact, saying they would submit my credit card number to pay the fine. I thought it got paid. I need to check my statements to see. One year later I get a 113.00 Euro fine. My worry is if I don’t pay it and they have my credit card # they will charge the after 60 days charge of 185 Euros.
I love Italy, but from now on I will go to Croatia instead.
Gary
@Joe
Yes, there are blatant speed traps here. The police set up traps where they want, but most speed traps are fixed systems.
Basically, it’s the same as in your neck of the woods, both here and in the UK. The police target accident black spots and fast stretches of road. Even if now, most black spots have their very own fixed units. The UK has ‘gatso’ cameras all over the place.
Fixed speed checks are relatively recent in Italy – last 10 years or so, whereas in the UK, fixed units have been around for a few years more.
@Gary
Sorry to hear yet another one caught out in Pisa.
Don’t worry, they do not have your credit card. I don’t believe that the rental company is authorised to pass credit card info to the authorities. If so, this would be an invitation for trouble. And should you find out that the Pisa police have your credit card number – complain in strong terms, and cancel the card.
Read the my replies above for how to try to dispute these things. If you were transporting disabled people, you can have the fine annulled.
Hope you have a nice vacation in Croatia, and that there are no hidden surcharges…
All the best to both of you,
Alex
my husband receiveda “ticket” via the mail from October of 2007 for some traffic violation in Pisa.
we have tried to access the “photo” of our infringement and can not get the website to come up. any help out there is greatly appreciated! I was not in a hurry to go to Pisa (our second time) and now I will say I will NEVER go back.
we got a notice from Pisa as well for almost 200.00 us dollars.
Did you pay your fine?
Ive been a bad boy as well
received two speeding tickets in italy an hour and a half apart for the same stretch of road at the same place each for €180. (i have not received a speeding ticket in the last ten years in the UK or europe and i do a lot of miles) On each of the tickets it does not specify what road the incident occurred on, just a number of i presume the camera. How can i possibly verify if i was there or Not?
I also got two tickets for pisa traffic zone, 13 minutes apart(€110 each). i was driving around pisa for an hour looking for a parking spot, could of driven in and out of the zone many many times, who knows. Both myself and wife cannot remember any signs about not being allowed to drive within a certain area and i certainly was not advised by the car hire company that a zone existed.
I guess i am going to pay the speeding tickets but i will contest the pisa tickets as far as i can, it is unfair. I know that some would say that its the same as italliens coming over here aand driving in the congestion zone in london, but its not. In london you have the option to pay a fee to allow you to drive within it in pisa as far as i understand you do not. Pisa is a tourist area what do they expect tourist to do if they are not informed.
All of the tickets received just about within the year of the offences, this surely cannot be right or fair.
Anyway all of this leaves a very bad taste in the mouth, it looks to me as if it is a tourist trap.
I will put on hold any plans to visit italy again, i am due to organise a rugby trip for 50 people to italy or france. I guess france has just jumped to the top of the list, tourist office staff visiting this site please take note
my wife has just received (over a year later)Pisa’s now infamous claim for 113 euros for travelling in restricted zone. Thanks Alex for the support of this blog. I am going to write a letter to the tourist board with copies to the police and the Pisa Comune, saying that their attitude to toursits is outrageous. I am going to point out your website and point out just how many disgruntled international travellers are adamant they will not return. I will let you know the contents in due course. Incidentally,the official Pisa tourist map, marks neith one way streets, not the restricted traffic zones. michael
Wow! I’m having some trouble keeping up with all this.
Pisa is something of a fine hotspot, without a doubt.
@Michael – please go for it. Write to whoever you like. And send copies to a few national newspapers too. The more noise is made, the better the chance that something will be done.
Italian road signs are terrible – too many, too detailed and too late, just about sums the things up. And with impatient Italian drivers up your backside, you stand zero chance of seeing the sings which matter.
Let me know how you get on – and spread the word – do not go to Pisa by car!
Alex
I also recieved a ticket in the mail that was on September 9 in 2007.
Can somebody tell me where I can find the picture that they are refering to and where do I find verbele number on the sheet of paper that I recieved in the mail.
Thank you,
Norma
I too have had one of these and welcome any advice..I thought ‘Watchdog’ might be interested?
I too have been received a fine from Pisa(Two offences 8 minutes apart total 226 euro – I have been interested to note how often an 8 minute gap has been reported between offences in this blog). Anyway in my case its all doubly annoying as I was not in Italy at the time of the offence, nor have I ever hired a car from the hire company mentioned.
I have contacted the phone number on the letter and they were no help at all, they just kept asking ” well when were you in Pisa”. I have also sent e-mails to explain my position and ask for advice , all they do is reply with more advice on how to pay the fine and view the photo on the website.
The whole situation is outrageous, I too will be writing to the Italian tourist office and Pisa commune to demand an explanation.
Got my first 113 Euro surprise yesterday. Am expecting two more as Europcar took 96 Euro from my Amex in February. Car hire mob said they were for 3 parking fines in Pisa last November (3 in 20 minutes).
Being from Australia, there is no way I will be paying the fines, I am going to frame the infringement notices as a souvenir of our trip, and send a two word email to infostranier@sepi-pisa.it.
I am another ‘victim’ of Hertz and the Municipality of Pisa. My wife and I were in Italy in June 2007. We hired a car in Rome and headed North. We made a brief stop in Pisa, just to get some lunch and have a quick look around. Later in the week we stayed in Verona. In October, after our return to New Zealand, we received two invoices from Hertz for what I assumed were parking fines in Verona. They had already debited our credit card. Then in December we had another for a fine from Pisa. A couple of days ago we received an infringement notice from the Municipality of Pisa. When I tried to access the photograph I discovered your site. It was only then that I realised the invoices from Hertz were for ‘administration fees’ and not actual fines. After reading the posts on your site I have managed to see the photograph – just about all it shows is the car number plate – hardly proof of an offence. We certainly werent aware of any restricted zones.
I am hoping we wont receive further infringement notices from Verona. The times and dates given relate to us stopping outside the hotel we stayed at to unload our bags so maybe that will get us off any ‘infringement’
Reading all the comments on your site was very helpful. My inclination is not to make too much effort to pay the fine.
I have just received a 113 euro fine for the circulating in a restricted traffic zone while lost in Pisa.
My only fear is that there are more on the way. One or 2 i can handle more than that i think is just extracting the urine.
I too received a 113 euro fine last week (for circulating in a restricted zone in Pisa) from May 2007 but I have no idea when the cops got the info from Europcar – I can’t even remember which credit card I used but no doubt I have an additional charge on there which I missed. I would ignore it but I’m not sure how hot they are on nabbing you if you re-enter the country. Apparently, the UK does not pursue this type of offence with foreigners as it is not a criminal offence here whereas it is in Italy/Spain etc.
Like most others I did not see the sign either and I usually look out for these things. Anyone written to their MEP yet?
At the risk or being repetetive, I too have just received 2 requests for €113 for entering the fabled restricted zone in Pisa in August 2007. These are a day apart and are dated a year and a day after the offences. Suspecting a scam, I googled and that brought me here. I shall read what has gone before carefully but feel very aggrieved and will do whatever I can to get the fines dropped or forgotten. I’ll be reading everyone elses progress with great interest.
Alex, You can add this to your list of useful links:
http://www.bella-toscana.com/traffic_violations_italy.htm
Jon
@ Mike – do your worst. I have heard of people getting fines when they where not in the area at the time. Do prostest.
To other Pisa victims, I’ve just added this new post:
How to pay Pisa traffic violations
I hope it helps in some small way.
And Jon – thanks for the link.
Alex
@Sam Hobbs – I love the Watchdog idea! Go for it! Feel free to mention my name, and Blog from Italy.
Cheers,
Alex
PS If enough noise is made, something will happen.
For the moment though: Don’t stop in Pisa for pizza!
I think everyone affected should contact watchdog in the UK
http://www.bbc.co.uk/consumer/tv_and_radio/watchdog/contact_index.shtml
here is the address. the more people who talk out, the more chance of helping others
Well Ladies and Gentleman, I have now joined your club!!! Yip, that’s right 113 Euro fine for allegedly driving in a ZTL in Pisa in June 2007, no charges from Hertz yet….
.
I do hope that you all make me feel welcome!!!!
From what I have read there are 3 options. 1) Ignore the letter as it was not sent via registered mail; 2) Pay up and smile or 3) Contest the fine.
My preferred option is to contest the fine. – It looks like I’ll be spending the afternoon drafting a letter. It would be helpful if there was a template letter that could be sent to the authorities in Pisa which outlines all of the grounds to dispute the fine – does such a template exist??
The sickening part about this is that I have just returned from another weeks holiday in Italy which involved driving in Pisa and in Florence there will no doubt be further fines on the way. I’ve already cancelled the credit card I used with Europecar to try and avoid their charges.
Andy – thanks for the link. Which category would you suggest? There is no travel category. I suppose misc or Sport, leisure etc??
I’ll drop them a line too. I’m sure a couple of BBC people would love a jaunt to Pisa – and they could even hire a car!!
Paul – sorry to hear that yet another has joined this unhappy band. Do write to them – in English, regardless of what the Pisa bods insist. Italy is in the EC and English is an official language. Tell them this.
I think I’ve seen something template wise, in Italian, on a forum. I’ll see if I can track it down.
All the best,
Alex
Paul, and whoever else might be interested, do check out the discussion on this over at:
http://my.lifeinitaly.com/f2/traffic-violations-t1921/
Alex
I’m doing the Watchdog thing – I suggest “Holidays” and a subcategory of “Miscellaneous”
Well done Jon! Would you like me to write in too? The more the merrier theory, possibly??
Best,
Alex
There is also a ‘Car Rental’ category under the main transport category…
I think as many people should write in as possible to raise the attention level. It’s important that they know just how many have been clobbered. We should also give your blog a reference so the researchers can do their homework.
PS – In your “How To Pay Pisa Traffic Violations” blog you asked for copies of our unusual holiday snaps. I couldn’t find an email address that I could attach my 2 snaps to. Can you point me in the right direction please – or PM me. Thanks!
“There is also a ‘Car Rental’ category under the main transport category…”
I think that is for issues with car rental companies specifically. Our primary issue is with the local highwaymen, the rental companies are caught in the middle, although they are charging us for the privilege.
Jon – send me a mail via the contact system:
http://www.blogfromitaly.com/contact/
And you’ll have an address if you copy the contact info to yourself.
Cheers,
Alex
I have just emailed watchdog and will draft my appeal over the next couple of days…a template is a really good idea, just send loads of appeals and maybe they will crumble under the workload.
To Paul and others.
The biggest mistake I made on this was accepting the Registered letters from the municipality of Pisa. Once you do so, you have been officially served, and have the responsibility of dealing with the issue. If you do not accept the letters, then the “court” has no proof that you have been properly notified, and can not continue to hold the claim against you.
NEVER ACCEPT REGISTERED LETTERS FROM UNKNOWN SOURCES.
I too, have emailed Watchdog.
Categories look a bit blase………..but ahve done it all the same.
Hopefully something will be done.
I also phoned them in Pisa to ask if I could pay by debit card Maestro……….they didnt like that and kept insisting it was a credit card.We’ve ended up paying the fine through a World Pay system at the bank , it will cost us £9 as well as the 113 euros fine.
Daylight robbery!!!
I too received 3 fines, at a 8 minutes difference one from the other, from the Pisa police department for the same reason travelling in their restricted zones…last September.I did not received the fines by registrered mail, and did not get any additional charge from Hertz…yet! I agree to pay 1 fine but not 3..I found a site under (Prefettura di Pisa)containing documentation on how you can contest a fine, there is a template to fill out and then it is presented to either the Prefect or the Justice of the peace, but the catch is, that if they reject your request you will have to pay at least minimum double the amount of the fine i.e 226 euros each yack! and if I dont pay the fines I am afraid the rental company comes back further down the road with 3 charges of 185 euros each + their charges on my credit card, can they do this?
I’m with Paul (from Australia) on this one. The completely inadequate signage and multiple fines issued minutes apart means that any moral obligation I had to pay is out the window. A small sacrifice is that I will not be able to go back to Pisa – but then the world’s a big place.
Dave
Hi All,
I don’t know if this will lead to anything, but the European parliament is showing up in my site visitors records, and whoever it was looked at this page.
Fingers crossed!
Please take a look at the photos in this post:
http://www.blogfromitaly.com/how-to-pay-pisa-traffic-violations/
I would be interested to hear if anyone else had the hired the same car. Always assuming that it was a hire car. Pretty sure it was.
I don’t think there has been any collusion – more like poor road signs, drivers not familiar with the areas and the unrelenting pace of Italian drivers – who don’t give anyone enough time to absorb the sea of road signs – all rigidly in Italian, of course. Bigger, clearer road signs are needed IMHO
All the best,
Alex
Same thing has happened to me. Has anyone acutally been successful in getting these ridiculous fines dropped or reduced? Does anyone know if you can pay them up bit by bit (no way can we afford it as a one off payment). Also who is the best person to write to to complain about this? Thank you.
Just to say that I too have contacted “Watchdog”. However, as they are off air until October I hope this doesn’t leave it too late for us. Does anyone have the email address for the Provincial Governor of Italy?
@Christine: How does this World Pay thing work to pay this fine? I have decided I would just like to pay the fine and be done with this (and never return to Pisa again), but the truth is I am in the US, and I haven’t the slightest idea how to go about paying this fine without spending a small fortune and guaranteeing it arrives on time and in sufficient quantity.
I have contacted My MEP’s that serve the county that i live in, with a reference to this site. So it could be something to do with that.
I have over 30 days to pay my first fine so hopefully we can get a resolution within that time. Everyone needs to contact there MEP and Watchdog about this. One fine i guess is acceptable if the rules were broken but multiple fines is just milking a cash cow
John phoned our bank and told them the quandary. The girl was quite helpful and gave us 2 options the cheapest way was wolrd pay…….£9 plus the euors amount takes a week to arrive……and the swift payment which they advocate is £25!!!!!!!! but quicker………….
Yes, I’ve been got by the dreaded 113Euros in Pisa. Seen the photo, etc. My bank, Natwest gave me the IBAN form to fill in, and told me it would cost 10GBP to process, ontop of the euros. It’s the slowest method, (about 5 working days), hence it’s the cheapest. Not available online as yet.
Still undecided as to whether to pay or not. I don’t really want to exclude myself from Italy. There is a recorded delivery waiting for me at the Post office, which I’ve not picked up yet…..
Cheers
Phil
Thanks for the replies.
So has anyone just ignored the letter that you have received informing you of the fine?
As mentioned previously surely if there was no proof of notification, there are no grounds to pursue.
From what I have read, after receiving the initial letter they will then send another via registered post – does anyone know how long this normally takes?
Thanks
Paul
Well I got my first “letter” about a week and a half ago,and now there’s a recorded letter waiting to be picked up, (which may not ever get picked up…….I am assuming it’s the official version)
My “offence” was 09/09/08.
The irony of the situation was, when we got back to our hire car, after walking round Pisa, some t**t had crashed into it, on the rhs, which was up against the pavement !!!!! Fortunately, the collison waver sorted that out.
HTH
Phil
Ooops, spot the deliberate mistake……….almost credited the Italians with being on-the-ball there. My offence was 08/09/2007.
For those who are paying the infamous Euro 113 fine from Pisa; Do you know what the receiving bank charge is for money that is wire transferred.
I got a notice to pay to
CASSA DI RISPARMIO LUCCA PISA LIVORNO
AGENZIA 1- CORSO ITALIA 4-56125 PISA
Account number: IBAN IT 50 B 06200 14021 00000235970
Thanks
Well – that was a good few hours spent reading web sites on Pisa traffic fine scams! In conclusion, i think it is an official ’scam’ and as i aim to go back will have to cough up.
My bank – Lloyds TSB – will pay the €113 plus £20 admin fee – but need the name and address of the bank. Can anyone help with this as there is no information that i can make out in the letter.
Thanks for any help.