Speeding, and other traffic fines in Italy
PLEASE READ THIS:
I would like to underline that I do not suggest or condone the non-payment of fines. If I did, I would probably end up in big trouble here in Italy, and seeing as I live, work and have family here, I would like to avoid such a situation. If, by chance, someone has read this post, the comments, and then decided not to pay, then do not blame me if you end up with problems as a result. Any and all advice I have provided to others has been and is provided informally – I am not an authority, and have not made any claim to be. For conclusive advice on the payment of traffic fines received as a result of a trip abroad, I recommend contacting motoring organisations, embassies or the police in your country of origin.
Sorry about the legalish stuff, but I thought covering my back may not be such a bad idea. You never know nowadays and this blog is public (Indeed, I have now been lucky enough to have been accused of being a scammer, I am not, but see the comments below and make up your own mind.) Now you can read this post… and wade through the 500+ comments!
UPDATE 6th May 2010
Revised 11th May, 2010
Revisions to Italy’s highway code have not yet been approved by the Italian parliament – one of the changes of interest to non-Italian motorists is the reduction in the amount of time traffic fines can be sent out.
It looks as though the 360 day period for sending out fines may stay the same for foreign residents – or even less. I am investigating because the actual time period is not clear. The Italian press says the authorities have 60 days to send fines to Italian drivers, whereas the wording of the revised to law – which I’ve read - seems to indicate 30 days for Italian drivers and 60 days for drivers not resident in Italy. As I said, I’m checking. However, it looks likely that the relevance the EC -v- Italian Republic case no C-224/00 as grounds for an appeal (case no C-224/00 is mentioned below) will be diminished, if not reduced to zero.
Now, read this:
Summary of How to Deal with Fines received while in Italy
I’ve been getting lots of email from people on the subject of fines, so instead of repeating myself many times over, here’s how I understand the situation – BUT I am not a lawyer.
This section does not reflect the recently proposed changes to Italian highway law.
What happens:
- You receive a ‘notification of fine’ – the notice of payment before official notification – from a fine collection agency for some infraction or other which you allegedly committed while in Italy.
Your options:
- Pay the fine or fines at the time of the notification. No further action will be taken – but you are not obliged to pay.
- Wait until the actual fines arrive – usually a letter you have to sign for. The Official Notification must be sent by registered/ recorded deliver mail.
- Write to the agency which sent the notification in an attempt to carry out a form of ‘informal’ appeal. While the agency is not bound to do anything, and cannot cancel the fines, it can contact the municipality in which the infraction took place and bring further information, such as extenuating circumstances, to the municipality’s attention. This might cause the fine or fines to be cancelled or reduced.
What are the grounds for the informal appeal?
- You have a blue invalid badge because either you have a registered disability or you were transporting someone with a registered disability. Even if you did not have the badge, but were transporting someone with a registered disability – the municipality might reduce the amount of or cancel the fine or fines.
- You had a hotel booking made before you entered a limited traffic area with a hotel within a limited traffic or ZTL area of an Italian town or city. You would need to provide documentary proof of the booking – a receipt showing for how long you stayed and when you checked out.
- Factual errors. Wrong car, or driver, wrong registration/licence plate.
If your ‘informal appeal’ did not work and you receive the actual fines. What then?
- You can pay. Payments from outside Italy can be effected via credit card or bank transfer.
- You can register a formal appeal within 60 days to either the prefect or the justice of the peace for the area in which you allegedly committed the offence.
Now it becomes complicated.
If you lodge an appeal with a prefect, which is easier, you may lose and be ordered to pay double the fine. This is the risk inherent in appealing. And appeals to Italian prefects are, I’m told, rarely successful.
If you appeal to a justice of the peace, you will have to make a payment of €38, and you really need the services of an Italian lawyer to lodge an effective appeal. The advantage of this approach is that appeals to Italian justices of the peace are likely to be more successful – indeed, a good lawyer should be able to give you an idea as to whether an appeal is likely to succeed or not, before it goes to court. Italian justices of the peace have been known to annul or reduce fines, but do not always double them. However, as lawyers the world over may confirm, judges can be unpredictable creatures, so the outcome of any appeal can never be 100% certain.
Should an appeal to a justice of the peace be unsuccessful, an appeal to a higher level court in Italy may be possible – but it will be very expensive, and time consuming. Legal fees alone are likely to exceed the amount of any fine.
Time limits
Note first, and as I mentioned at the start of this section, the time the Italian authorities have to send out fines is changing – but one crucial aspect is not – the statutory time limit – which is the length of time which passes before a case can no longer be perused under Italian law. This period is 5 years from the date of the infraction, as far as both Al, who has been reading up on this, and I am aware.
While ignoring these fines is an option, it is not an option I can recommend. Not paying may cause you problems if you return to Italy within 5 years or so of an alleged offence.
Other updates follow, but some may be rendered invalid by recent changes to Italian highway law.
With thanks to Al who has been throwing lots of information and documents at me recently – I hope I’ve managed to summarise the situation succinctly, and, more to the point, accurately. Remember though, I am not a lawyer.
Corrections welcome. Corrections received from reader Al – thanks!
End of 11th May revisions
Alex Roe – 6th May, 2010
IMPORTANT UPDATE 17 February 2010 – please also see the 6th April 2010 Update below
Revised: 7 March 2010
Reader Peter has very kindly drawn my attention to the called EC -v- Italian Republic, case no C-224/00. The text of the case which is available in English and other European languages, can be seen here:
Judgment of the Court (Sixth Chamber) of 19 March 2002.
Commission of the European Communities v Italian Republic.
Failure by a Member State to fulfil its obligations – Article 6 of the EC Treaty (now, after amendment, Article 12 EC) – Difference in treatment of persons contravening the highway code according to the place of registration of their vehicle – Proportionality.
In essence, it does look as though the fines European Union citizens have been receiving are, and always have been invalid.
Again, I would reiterate that I am not a lawyer, so I cannot be sure, but I would repeat Peter’s suggestion that if you are a European Union resident and you have received a fine more than 210 days after an offence, you should write back quoting case no C-224/00, and saying you will write to MEPs etc about this. If this does not get the Italian authorities off your back – then speak to a lawyer (class actions are possible in Italy now -and I know a good firm of lawyers too!).
In summary – if you received a fine for any motoring offence after 210 days, and you are an EU citizen, you may be able to refuse to pay on the basis of C-224/00.
And here is a comment from reader Pablo, dated 7 March 2010, which other people may find interesting:
Many posts above complain about the Italian authorities’ delay in notifying traffic penalties and their insistence on communicating in Italian. Fear not – the law is on your side, as I think both issues contravene the European Convention on Human Rights, specifically Part I Article 6:
“1 – In the determination of his civil rights and obligations or of any criminal charge against him, everyone is entitled to a fair and public hearing within a reasonable time by an independent and impartial tribunal established by law. Judgement shall be pronounced publicly but the press and public may be excluded from all or part of the trial in the interest of morals, public order or national security in a democratic society, where the interests of juveniles or the protection of the private life of the parties so require, or to the extent strictly necessary in the opinion of the court in special circumstances where publicity would prejudice the interests of justice.
2 – Everyone charged with a criminal offence shall be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law.
3 – Everyone charged with a criminal offence has the following minimum rights:
(a) to be informed promptly, in a language which he understands and in detail, of the nature and cause of the accusation against him;
(b) to have adequate time and facilities for the preparation of his defence;
(c) to defend himself in person or through legal assistance of his own choosing or, if he has not sufficient means to pay for legal assistance, to be given it free when the interests of justice so require;
(d) to examine or have examined witnesses against him and to obtain the attendance and examination of witnesses on his behalf under the same conditions as witnesses against him;
(e) to have the free assistance of an interpreter if he cannot understand or speak the language used in court.”
NOTE: This should not be confused with Article 6 of the EC Treaty referred to in Alex’s 17 Feb “Important Update” at the top of this blog.
Key words/phrases italicised above are “within a reasonable time”, “presumed innocent”, “promptly”, “in a language which he understands”, “in detail” and “free … interpreter”.
You must be told promptly of an accusation – presumably so you can recall the circumstances of the incident and collect any evidence you need while memories are still fresh. It follows that if you were not told promptly, then you have obviously been denied the opportunity of “a fair & public hearing within a reasonable time”. Thus it seems the Italian law allowing up to a year to tell you about an accusation is incompatible with the ECHR and is therefore invalid & unenforceable. As Mike, James & Peter have mentioned, a UK prosecuting authority must serve a Notice of Intended Prosecution within 2 weeks of an alleged traffic offence, and a penalty notice or court summons within 6 months. If the UK can do it, so could Italy – if it wanted to. You can form your own opinion of why Italian authorities delay sending a penalty notice for a year or more. My guess is it’s to reduce the likelihood of drivers remembering what happened or having kept car hire paperwork & hotel/restaurant/fuel/shopping receipts (to prove when & where you were) after such a long time. Depending on its timing and the extent of detail given, notification of a violation (such as an “amicable” EMO invitation to accept a fine) might satisfy the requirement to inform you promptly of an accusation. But the penalty notice sent by registered post is the important one, so if it arrives after 210 days you can reject it as denying you the option of a hearing “within a reasonable time”.
Regarding time limits, if you receive a penalty notice ask the car rental Co for a copy of documents showing when the police asked for the renter’s data and when they were given, so you can check whether the prescribed time scales were complied with and reject the penalty as out of time if they over-ran. If they claim they’re allowed 360 days remind them of European Court case C-224/00 (see Alex’s 17 Feb “Important Update”). Although that case concerned disparity in the treatment of drivers depending on where their cars were registered, it reinforced the principle in ECHR Pt.1 Art.14 that laws must not discriminate between nationalities. Thus you can reject any liability on the basis that the 360-day rule discriminates against non-Italians, so is incompatible with the ECHR and is therefore invalid & unenforceable.
You can insist on being told of the accusation in your own language, despite what Italian authorities might prefer. Again, an Italian law allowing authorities to demand communication in Italian is incompatible with the ECHR and is therefore invalid & unenforceable. It seems you are allowed 60 days from receiving a fine to pay up or appeal, so you could email or fax – in your own language – on the 59th day from receiving a penalty notice in Italian (or an incorrect own-language translation containing bad grammar or wrong spelling such as “Grait” Britain), saying you don’t understand it and ask for an accurate translation. Meanwhile the 210-day clock is still ticking, as the notice doesn’t count as served unless it’s “in a language which [you] understand”, and of course sent by registered post. If it contains any factual errors (name, time, date, location, car Reg.No, make, model etc) you can safely ignore it as it does not accurately describe the accusation and is thus unprovable – but don’t tell ‘em as they could re-issue a correct one within the 210-day period. The longer you spin out the arguments the more they would be likely to abandon the fine or run out of time. As Alex suggested, you could impose your own time-limit, such as “If I do not receive the information requested within 14 days I will assume you have (a) withdrawn all accusation/s, (b) cancelled all associated penalties & charges and (c) ceased all action/s”. With luck they won’t bother to provide a proper translation in time, or just give up. If they complain send them a copy of Article 6 – in English – with the relevant text highlighted (to be ultra-helpful you could also send the Italian version if you can find it).
Another thing: in earlier posts Alex (and the Bella-Toscana link) suggested that Italian law assumes you are guilty until proved innocent. That too is incompatible with the ECHR, under which – as in most western-style democracies – the accused is presumed innocent until proved guilty. Thus an authority has no right to collect a penalty unless the accusation has been proved. Just saying you were seen in such a place at such a time does not prove you were. A photo of your car – or its number plate, or the driver, or the road – proves nothing without context such as time, date, place, nature of infringement and applicable law – including evidence that adequate signage was in place and operative (the international symbol of a red ring on a white background with a pictogram and/or text specifying the restriction). A close-up snap of a number plate without any verifiable context might lead a suspiciously-minded person to wonder if there could be an element of fakery involved, but of course I can’t imagine who could possibly be so uncharitable… Find the road in Google maps – there might be a “street view” showing if there were proper signs, properly positioned and visible. You could make their life more difficult by asking for proof – in your own language – that the recording equipment has been properly maintained, calibrated and tested, as we can in the UK for camera-related allegations. If the authority can’t prove the camera was working properly, who’s to say it recorded the correct time & date when the photo was taken or if a restriction actually applied when it was taken? Ask for the make & model of equipment and copies of certificates etc (translated to your language) showing this particular device has been certified & approved for this particular use; does it have a good or bad reliability history? You can probably think of a string of other things to slow up the process which you can keep trotting out, one after the other, until they get bored. If they don’t like it or won’t co-operate, tough – the greedy, profiteering scumbags shouldn’t try to rip off foreign tourists with unverified accusations. I certainly wouldn’t even think of using the appeals procedure, for which you have to deposit twice the initial fine! If they try to pursue you for non-payment, you’ll probably have a whole bunch of unanswered technical questions as your defence. The bottom line is, they must prove their case if asked.
EU member nations are legally bound to ensure their laws comply with the ECHR. Therefore I believe the above applies to all nationalities driving in Italy, not only EU citizens. National laws that don’t comply with EU legislation can be challenged in the European Court, as Alex pointed out in his 17 Feb “Important Update”. Italian cities probably issue several million of these fines every year (the Bella-Toscana article said 859,959 in Florence alone in 2008). If even only 10% were challenged it would clog the fines system to the extent it would be unworkable – and might even persuade city authorities to review their policy of killing off the tourist trade.
For those concerned at the legality of the above strategies, I must stress that none of them contravene any valid regulations or laws. On the contrary, they rely on applying the appropriate laws, though not necessarily those the Italian authorities would like. These arguments are equally valid if your own national traffic authority tries to collect under some sort of reciprocity agreement.
Like you Alex, I’m not a lawyer, just an ordinary bloke who can read & think, and I’ve no idea if any of this has been tested in court. If not, who’s first …?
End of 17 February 2o1o and March 7 2010 Updates
Speeding, and other traffic fines in Italy
I had a contact via this blog from some people (And I hope they don’t mind my mentioning this situation, but I do think it needs mentioning) who have, in a sense, come face to face with the black side of European unity, in that these people found an Italian speeding fine, written in Italian, lying on their English doormat after the postman had done his thing.
John Folkard, one of the many who have been caught out by the restricted traffic zone in Piza, posted something about the problem on the travel tips message boards of the UK newspaper the Daily Telegraph.
Check out my updates to this post, but please do try to read everything and the comments, yes, I know there are lots of them:
- SEE ALL PAGES FOR UPDATES and YET ANOTHER UPDATE, May 2007, for more info on Pisa, and
- look at One more update – 18/09/2007, for some potentially interesting info.
20th May 2007: SUGGESTION: If you wish, you can tell me where (Place, street, time, date) you got your fine and I will add it to the Platial Map system. I’d also like to post photos of the restricted traffic zone signs to help others avoid falling into the same trap.
Have a look at this more recent post: Speed Cameras in Italy
It will help you to know what you need to look out for and where the cameras are.
Although, regretfully, it may be too late for many who arrive here, I’ve also written a post entitled:
How to Avoid Fines while Staying in Italy
I’ll try to keep both posts up to date, so check back here from time to time.
Time Limits – this is confusing – Updated
Important April 6th 2010 UPDATE
A son of one of the victims, Al (not Alex Roe) who knows Italian, French and English, supplied me with some very interesting information on the subject of time limits.
Al states that the time limit for the sending out of notices to drivers who are not resident in Italy is 360 days from the date the offence was committed – not, as had been my previous interpretation, 360 days, plus the 60 days which is often used to ‘identify’ the driver of a hire/rental car.
Here is Al’s research (note that Al is not a lawyer – and like everything else here, his interpretations need to be verified) – which I’ve published in its entirety with only a few minor edits, because I, we, think it may help a few people:
Codice della strada http://www.aci.it/index.php?id=869
Art. 201. Notificazione delle violazioni
1. Qualora la violazione non possa essere immediatamente contestata, il verbale, con gli estremi precisi e dettagliati della violazione e con la indicazione dei motivi che hanno reso impossibile la contestazione immediata, deve, entro centocinquanta giorni dall’accertamento, essere notificato all’effettivo trasgressore o, quando questi non sia stato identificato e si tratti di violazione commessa dal conducente di un veicolo a motore, munito di targa, ad uno dei soggetti indicati nell’art. 196, quale risulta dai pubblici registri alla data dell’accertamento. Se si tratta di ciclomotore la notificazione deve essere fatta all’intestatario del contrassegno di identificazione. Qualora l’effettivo trasgressore o altro dei soggetti indicati sia identificato successivamente, la notificazione può essere effettuata agli stessi entro centocinquanta giorni dall’identificazione. Per i residenti all’estero la notifica deve essere effettuata entro trecentosessanta giorni dall’accertamento.
As I, Al, see it you have two “notions”:
1 – “identificazione” which can be “applied” (if necessary) to the resident in Italy,
2 – “accertamento” which refers to the day you were ascertained, “controlled” (“checked”).
(For instance the day a ZTL traffic camera took a beautiful picture of your license plate).
In this case “accertamento” doesn’t mean ascertainment (checking) of your identity.
Al’s opinion matches that of the Aduc (Associazione per i Diritti degli Utenti e Consumatori) web site:
http://sosonline.aduc.it/scheda/multe+violazioni+al+codice+della+strada+verbale+sua_12880.php
LA NOTIFICA DEL VERBALE
Resident in Italy
E’ quindi chiaro che il giorno da cui partire col conteggio dei 150 giorni non e’ facile da stabilire perche’ puo’ variare da caso a caso, e non e’ pertanto possibile standardizzare ne’ le regole ne’ i possibili ricorsi riguardanti questo delicato punto.
Resident abroad
Il caso di residenti all’estero, invece, il verbale dev’essere notificato entro 360 giorni dall’accertamento, calcolati inequivocabilmente dalla data dell’infrazione.
Al’s translation: For the resident abroad, however, the fine must be notified within 360 days of the ascertainment / (police) control, calculated unambiguously from the date of the infraction.
Decision 198/1996 of the Constitutional Court
Excerpt from Alex Roe’s post: “ My translation: Decision 198/1996 of the Constitutional Court established that the 150 (360 days – for non-Italian residents) day period in situations in which the identification of the actual offender is subsequent to the moment in which the violation occurred shall run from the date the authority is able to identify such offender. “
Alex Roe should never have added : “(360 days – for non-Italian residents)” (I agree – I should not have added this – Alex Roe)
Decision 198/1996 of the Constitutional Court established that a resident in Italy is ”identifiable” from the first day he’s registered at the DVLA. Not five months later when the police finally decided to inquire. “If you behave in such a way there’s no time limit anymore” said the Judge in essence.
Regarding Residents abroad in that same decision
“mentre per i residenti all’estero il legislatore fissa un termine di notificazione assolutamente insuperabile, sia pure determinandolo in un’ampia misura (più del doppio di quella prevista per i cittadini italiani), per questi ultimi invece il termine di centocinquanta giorni viene fatto decorrere dal momento in cui l’effettivo trasgressore o gli altri soggetti responsabili siano stati identificati successivamente”
“si consentirebbe una protrazione del termine, rimessa in ultima analisi alla discrezionalità dell’amministrazione, con un possibile slittamento perfino oltre l’ampio ma rigido termine previsto dalla stessa legge per la contestazione della violazione ai residenti all’estero”
While there is an ample 360 day time limit (for residents abroad) that from the onset (the date of the traffic violation) cannot increase : it’s 360 days (and that’s all folks!), not 361, 362, ……………..
On the contrary the time limit of 150 days (for Italian citizens subjected to the whims of their administration) could…………….”slide along”……………to the point that it could even go beyond ……… the ample but rigid time limit of 360 days for foreigners abroad.
To bring the matter of time limits to a close
Yes, I do agree with you: “Time Limits – this is confusing” (Thanks, Al – it confused me!)
An Italian Court can render a sensible decision. Too rare not to be appreciated.
There can be no doubt any more that 360 day time limit for residents abroad runs from the date of the offence, not later.
The EMO fine collection agency’s Misleading Information
On their web site (http://www.emo.nivi.it/) the collection agency EMO appears to mislead traffic offenders when they answer FAQ n°17 (http://www.emo.nivi.it/Faq.aspx) :
“According the Italian Traffic Code the police have 360 days after the date of the violation or identification of the owner of the vehicle within which to notify fines to foreigners. In the event of rented vehicles, the 360 days start as from the date of identification of the holder of the rental agreement at the time of the violation, or from the date of receipt of the personal data sent by the car rental company.”
Al spoke to someone at EMO and tried to explain the 360 day time limit but EMO would not listen.
EMO acts on behalf of the municipal police of more than 150 Italian local council areas.
The FAQ section of the EMO web site is in ten languages, but there are many mistakes, not only with spelling and grammatical mistakes, but also with fact. For example: The answer to FAQ n°16 in the French version states the opposite of what it should say: NO, you must absolutely not pay the fine after having received the Official Notification if you intend to lodge an appeal !
They must have availed themselves of Google or some other translation web site.
Not taking into account the matter of the 360 day time limit.
What bugs me is that I can’t seem to find out if EMO misleads foreign tourists deliberately or just out of sheer stupidity.
I would not exclude the second assumption !
Also this article: (attempt from Milan to recover fines in Ticino)
http://www.tio.ch/aa_pagine_comuni/articolo_interna.asp?idarticolo=449497&idsezione=1&idsito=1&idtipo=3
Excerpt: Errore che riguarderebbe i “termini di notifica all’estero (dall’Italia) delle violazioni del Codice della strada”.
In sostanza il Codice della strada dice che “per i residenti all’estero la notifica deve essere effettuata entro trecentosessanta giorni dall’accertamento”. Secondo quanto ricostruito, molte delle multe notificate ai cittadini sarebbero avvenute oltre i 360 giorni necessari. “Le pretese zurighesi (e a monte milanesi) sono tardive” scrive il giornale, arrivando alla conclusione che “la C&S se ne infischia altamente della decorrenza dei termini”.
I responsabili della C&S Credit Management Ag di Küsnacht, contattati sulla questione e messi di fronte alla legge secondo la quale il termine ultimo di notifica è 360 giorni dopo l’accertamento dell’infrazione, hanno spiegato che per “accertamento” si intende dell’identità del possessore della targa, non dell’infrazione.
C&S Credit Management Ag di Küsnacht appear to adhere to the interpretation of the word “accertamento” as referring to the date that the driver’s identity has been established, not, the date of the infraction. This, in Al and the Italian Aduc consumers association, appears to be wrong.
To cut a long story short, foreign drivers who have received fine notifications beyond the 360 period can write and request that the fine, or fines, be annulled.
With great thanks to Al for all his research into this matter. Shortly, I will publish a letter which people can use to request that these pesky fines are officially torn up.
END of April 6th 2010 Update
This speculation is now out of date, but I’ve left it here, just in case someone may find it useful:
OUT OF DATE FROM HERE:
18/09/2007 update
OK, I’ve had a look into this time limits thing a bit more and from what I can make out from the Italian Automobile Club site here.
There is indeed, as Sean commented below, a time limit of 150 days for the notification of the fine, if the individual committing the violation is resident in Italy.
This limit extends to 360 days for individuals committing violations who are not resident in Italy, however, these time limits run from as soon as the actual offender has been identified:
The Italian Law on Time Limits
In Italian from the Italian Automobile Club site: La Corte Costituzionale, con sentenza 198/1996, ha stabilito che il termine dei 150 giorni, nel caso in cui l’identificazione dell’effettivo trasgressore avvenga successivamente rispetto al momento in cui la violazione è stata commessa, decorre dalla data in cui l’autorità è in grado di identificarlo.
My translation: Decision 198/1996 of the Constitutional Court established that the 150 (360 days – for non-Italian residents) day period in situations in which the identification of the actual offender is subsequent to the moment in which the violation occurred shall run from the date the authority is able to identify such offender.
———————–
It appears that the 360 day period starts running from as soon as the police have been advised by the car rental company, friend, etc, who was driving the car at the time of the offence.
This means, presumably, that the police must then send you a fine within this 360 day period, otherwise it is no longer valid.
Note: the car rental company, friend etc have 60 days to advise the police that they were not driving the vehicle at the time of the offence.
My understanding (I am not a lawyer):
- If you have directly received a fine notification which is in your name, you need to know when the rental company got round to telling the police who you are – then you add 360 days to this date – so you can check by when the police should have sent you the fine.
- If it clearly turns out that more than 360 days has passed, you probably do not have to pay.
In summary:
If the offence is committed by someone using a car that is registered in Italy, the police then have 150 days to notify the car owner.
Car owner then has 60 days to tell the police that the driver was foreign and to supply details of the driver.
The police have 360 days to send the fine to the offending driver.
What Could Happen:
- Let’s assume that the fine arrives at the hire company (or car owner) after 149 days (in time under Italian law)
- Next, the car owner tells the police that the driver who committed the offence was foreign after 59 days. (208 days have passed since the fine arrived)
- The police then send out a fine to the foreign driver that arrives after 359 days. (360 day limit when driver is foreign)
This means that the total time elapsed from the offence to the fine arriving in another country is 149 + 59 + 359 which equals 567 days.
The driver then has 60 days to either pay or dispute the fine or the amount of the fine increases.
What remains unclear is how the Italian police/authorities can prove that they notified you within the 360 time limit. Registered post may be one option, and if you receive a fine by normal post, then you could, in theory and I am not saying that you should do this, simply throw it away and deny any knowledge of it. Things certainly get lost in the post here in Italy – I can attest to this.
If anyone would like to corroborate my interpretation, then please do. I have tried to wade though the Italian law on this, but did not manage to find all the relevant sections, subsections, commas, and/or subsequent modifications to same. Sorry. But you can have a look here to start with, if you can read Italian:
Article 201 – Notification of Violations.
20/02/2008 UPDATE to time limits
Thanks to information provided by Rusty via his comments, it appears as though the Italian authorities have two years to collect fines, but I don’t know if the two year period starts when the fine arrives, or when someone fails to pay the fine within the 60 day pay/up or dispute period.
In simple terms:
- You receive a fine notification via registered mail.
- You do nothing.
- The Italian police do nothing.
- Two years pass – you no longer have to pay the fine.
Whether you decide to sit this two year period out and see what happens, is up to you, but those in the European Union should perhaps watch out for reciprocal fine collection agreements.
Anyway, if this happens to someone, and they come to Italy after two years, they do not have to worry.
If I come across any more information, I’ll post it here. Sorry I did not cotton on to this before, but, as I now have to point out – I am not an expert on this. If you know someone who is, please, oh, please let me know, and I mention this expert here.
OUT of Date TO HERE.
29/09/2007 UPDATE:
This issue has been discussed on several forums:
- Here: Virtual Tourist
- And here: Trip Advisor
- Here, in another language: Euro Travel
- Life in Italy’s forum has also considered this issue: Life in Italy
If you come across any more, let me know.
Ciao!
Just thought I’ll drop a comment on your mention of Hungary… how is this coming here?
Anyway, your blog is a nice read, I’ve already picked up a couple of very good infos, thanks!
Gabor
Ciao back Gabor!
I did not want to offend Hungarians – it’s just that I know someone here in Italy who is Hungarian and despite her efforts I could not even manage to pronounce Hungarian words, let alone read them. This is why Hungary came to mind. If I got a fine in written in Hungarian I would probably not understand that it was a fine!
Anyway great to hear that I have a Hungarian reader:-)
Alex
I recieved a fine yesterday from municipal police, apparently they want me to pay 110Euros for going through a restricted zone in PISA. How on earth do I pay this fine, my chequebook is only in english…
Some have said just ignore it… what do i do?
Hi Stuart,
Yes, you could ignore the fine, but, as they say, ‘they know where you live’ and if the reciprocal agreement comes into force next year, you may find that a new and larger fine will appear on your doorstep, so, why don’t you try phoning the number I mentioned in this blog entry 0044 8702400009 – it’s the DVLA, and see what they can tell you. And please let me know how you get on so I can add something to the blog entry to help everyone else who gets into this slightly sticky situation.
Good luck.
Regards,
Alex
Hi Alex,
Not sure if you’re still helping victims of ‘restricted zone’ fines, but following a visit to Italy in August 2009, I’ve had 4 fines (each 105 euros), two of them 3 minutes apart! They refer to visits I made to apparently restricted areas in Florence and Arezzo – like everyone else on the website I had no idea I was breaking any rules.
I’ve emailed my MEP as the quickest one came to me 228 days after the offence and I cannot recall what I was doing on those days. I’ll see where I get to with that. But I wonder what is likely to happen to me (in your view) if I simply ignore these letters and do not go back to Italy within the next 2 years? I know you wouldn’t condone this and I want to do the decent thing, but these fines are so vast that paying them is an issue.
Any advice for me? Do we have any kind of reciprication deal between UK and Italy? If not and we get one will it be applied retrospectively?
thanks for any help you can offer me.
Hi GF,
One at a time:
“But I wonder what is likely to happen to me (in your view) if I simply ignore these letters and do not go back to Italy within the next 2 years?
I know you wouldn’t condone this and I want to do the decent thing, but these fines are so vast that paying them is an issue.
Any advice for me?”
- I don’t really know what will happen. As I think I’ve commented elsewhere, I doubt whether they will send an Italian cop to knock on your door. Your passport may be flagged, I suppose – but Italy is not very good at networking, – they are getting better. You may be detained at an airport. Personally, I think this is unlikely – but don’t blame me if you try to get into Italy and they come knocking on your hotel door! Or something like that.
“Do we have any kind of reciprication deal between UK and Italy?”
This is on the cards, but is not yet operational, although the Eucaris system https://www.eucaris.net/index.php may speed up the implementation of communication between EU countries on such issues.
“If not and we get one will it be applied retrospectively?”
Something may happen in 2013 when an EU directive on Driving Licences is due to be issued apparently. Although I don’t know, I would doubt that any new system would be retrospective – it’s going to be enough of a nightmare to make all those computer networks speak to one another without adding in the extra complexity of retrospection – and they’d have to get each and every EU member to agree on the same retrospective date too – this may not be simple!
Sorry if I have not been of much use.
Alex
As always, I recommend paying up – then at least you will not have to worry about ending up with some huge bill down the line for 20,000 quid! If you decide not to pay, then that is up to you.
One important fact that needs to be considered is that NIVI Credit does mnot have a collection license to collect these fines in the US. As such, NIVI is in violation iof US Federakl laws and can be prosecuted. The same may hold true in other countries such as England.
I received the initial notification from EMO, a NIVI Credit Division and asked in addition to all kinds of proofs, for their license to do business as a collector in the USA. Let’s see what they produce.
NIVI is also using the italian car rental companies (the US subsidiaries such as AVIS, HERTZ, etc) as their collection arm which is also illegal as those are Italien entities and the US counterparts could be braking the laws. The rental contract states the renter is the one that pays the fine.
There is room for a class action lawsuit which I am looking into and will let all interested parties know of my findings.
Val Serra
Hi Val,
The absence of a “collection license” on the part of the agencies collecting fine payments is an interesting point.
With this point, we are moving into the realms of international law, I suspect. This complicates matters and is something I know nothing about. Potentially, if such a license is required under US law, and you are saying that it is, then nobody in the US is obliged to pay these fines via the collection agencies – but this is something which needs legal clarification.
As I’ve mentioned before, it is possible that someone who returns to Italy and who has not paid a fine may receive a visit from the Italian police. However, Italian laws on time barring would come into play after a certain number of years – 7 years I think it is.
If someone is never planning on returning to Italy, and does not live in the European Community, then they may get away with ignoring these fines – unless some mutual arrangement is made between the US and Italy.
However, I do not condone the non-payment of legitimate fines, I am not a lawyer, and I recommend taking advice on these issues from someone who is legally qualified to offer such advice.
The licensing issue is interesting though, and I wonder what the US Department of State might have to say on this issue. Someone, and American citizen, needs to write to the Department of State to ask about this.
Best,
Alex
Hi
I just god excatly the same. 2 fines yesterday and another 3 today. The 3 fines where within 3 minutes. This must be a joke… This was only for the first 3 days of my holiday so im really curius what will come!!!!
Do you have any experience of handling this..? I cant afford paying all of them
I suggest you do what I did and see what happens.
I requested for EMO to provide proofs of business licenses as well as a collection license in your state to collect the funds. I also requested for camera maintenance certification, the photographs taken of my rental car, explicit definition of my alledge infraction, the actual street number where the infraction took place, proof of adequate signs with clear description of the restrictions. All, of these to be provided in English.
I sent this letter registered so that I can track the delivery. This is the least expensive way to send a secured letter as well as sending the letter via email. I gave them 15 days to provide the proof.
As a precaution I suggest you cancel your credit card used with your rental company. EMO will issue a charge for the amount of the fine(s) request through your rental company if you dom not pay the fine which I recommend youm do not pay it and in turn the rental company will add a fee which for what I have read can be uop to 25% iof the fine.
Next send a letter to your rental company and tell them you are handling this issue directly with EMO and the police and have requested proof of the violation and business licenses. Do state that they have no authority to charge your credit card as it does not constitute a purchase of goods and services.
Then wait for a response.
Val
Stuart, I recevied the exact same thing today from the Municipal Police in Pisa for driving in a restricted zone and have to pay €110. How did you do it? We were lost and didn’t even know we were in a restricted zone thanks to those great italian road signs!.
Is this a scam?
I’ve had a request for Euro 99.4 for restricted zone (which we too didn’t notice) in Pisa and they want paying by bank transfer which will double the cost!
Bizarrely – I had just received a letter today from the Municipal Police in Pisa for driving in a restricted zone – same 110 Euro fine! I really didn’t see anything indicating that there was a fine-able zone anywhere. I rang the number on the form and a guy was able to tell me that I’d entered a resident-only area.
Sounds a bit of a scam, really… OK I can’t play the innocent abroad, but it wasn’t obvious. Clearly – if on the same thread there are another couple of people with exactly the same ‘offence’ with the same fine!
To Peter – as you know we have already corresponded about this and, hopefully, gone some way towards sorting it out.
To Stu – It does sound as though you are yet another victim of the often confusing and downright complex Italian road signs. I don’t know Pisa, but it looks as though it has even more confusing and complex signs than usual. Not knowing the lingo does not help either, but there is not a lot anyone can do about this.
Add to the list two couples from California fined by mail 110,4 Euros for driving in a restricted zone. Okay. It was at night. We were lost. Had we been able to determine that there are restricted zones we would happily avoid them. My local banker cannot decipher what portion of “IT 04 X 06200 14021 000002257243″ is the account number. I will try to get clarification by Fax or email. It allows somebody to translate my question and translate a reply. I am thinking that Comune Di Pisa is not motivated to post their restricted zones too prominantly.
We had an absolutely wonderful experience in April. A beautiful place to visit.
I admit that I am a wus. I will not ever set foot in Pisa, but would like to make a good faith effort to resolve the issue. And I have answered by own stupid question. There is a website that decodes international bank numbers (IBANs). It is http://www.xe.com/idt/
ISO country code: IT
IBAN check digits 04
Bank Code 06200
Branch Code 14021
Account number 000002257243
Transit number 06200 14021
Score one for the Comune Di Pisa Score zero for the gullible and obliging American tourist.
Cheers Alex. It’s obviously not well signed considering how many people have been caught out in Pisa! Oddly I didn’t remember seeing it in any guide books either.
Perhaps an EU-wide traffic symbol for ‘congestion charge’ or similar would be a better idea.
Stu
Hi Stu – “an EU-wide traffic symbol for ‘congestion charge’ or similar….” – sounds like a great idea!
Lobby your local MEP!
Alex
Hi All
I got the 110,4 Euro fine for “circulating in restricted traffic zone without authorisation” today. it also states that “the road conditions were such that the offender could not be stopped without causing danger to other vehicles”. I think that this have a faul smell of con men. Do any of you confirmed this or vice versa, that it is an actual fine sendt out by the police??
Regards
Trond
Hey,
I also got the 110,4 Euro fine for eaxactly same reasons, place, banking details as Loren/Trond.
I was also concerned this was a con, so if anyone knows it’s legitimate – please let us know. I was going to pay and get it over with, but given that I have exactly the same banking details as Loren – how will they know that “I” have paid the fine? There is nothing that would allow them to cross-references one of the many E110,4 deposits in their bank account back to ‘my’ fine???
Eddie
I just wanted to say that the bank details posted by Loren match those of someone else who got a fine as a result of driving in Pisa. This is something I have checked out with the authorities in Pisa, for whom fines are collected by an company called SEPI SpA which was formed by Pisa Council specifically for the purpose of collecting monies owed to Pisa Council. (http://www.sepi-pisa.it/) Mention of SEPI is also made, in Italian, on the main Pisa municipal police site – so Italians can pay their fines. (http://www.comune.pisa.it/polizia/doc/infrazioni.htm)
As a rule of thumb, if the fine you have has details which match Loren’s and has an email address at the top something like this “…….@sepi-pisa.it”, then I think you can be pretty sure that the fine is genuine.
Hope that helps,
Alex
I just phoned Ufficio informazioni and spoke to a nice man who tried to guide me to a website where I could pay my fine over the internet. Unfortunately my webserver couldn’t find it but he also suggested paying by postal order.Quote your fine number which is the number followed by /2006 on the top left of your notice, plus the licence number of your car. This is given on the notice preceded by the word “targa”. I got charged 157 euros for unwittingly going 5km over the speed limit when I was lost and being led everywhere by sat nav!
It’s all very iffy isn’t it.
So there are a number of us.. all having fallen foul of the non-helpful congestion charge system from the same city in Italy (I only searched on ‘Italy traffic fines’ and came across this site…) – where it’s not simple to pay, and where each person has received a note through the post asking them to pay.
How much credibility is there to saying, I just don’t *know* if it’s a con or not? There’s nothing with an ‘EU’ marking on it? There’s nothing to say that we’re not being scammed by a ‘mail phishing’ equivalent, because someone read our registration plate?
OK this sounds a bit conspiracy theory-ish… but given the poor signage – and given the number of correspondents here, it demonstrates that it must be poor…? What happens if we *don’t* pay?
Stu,
I sort of agree with you, but I have spoken to someone working for the collection agency down in Pisa. I deliberately did not provide all the information about the offence, but I was given the missing details correctly . Now, I could be very wrong, but I would not expect scammers to set up a phone line, a website, be able to get full details of cars and those in them on a particular day etc. However, I would like to know how many people driving hire cars got fines, where they were in hire the cars and possibly in which hotel they were staying. I shall look at and compare all the copies people have sent to me again to see if there is anything strange. I could even check with the police in the area to ensure that all is OK.
I’ll let you know how I get on.
As for not paying – this is an option, but if these fine are genuine, as I believe they are, you could risk getting a larger follow up fine. I think that the main consequence of not paying may only become evident when you come to Italy again – in that you may be arrested or something like that.
Seeing as there are now quite a number of ‘offenders’ now, I’ll look into this more closely.
Watch this space.
UPDATE
I spoke to Pisa Municipal police and was informed that from within the Pisa Council site it is possible to confirm whether a fine exists and even see the photo taken. Only I’m not sure whereabouts in the site you need to go and you may need to register, although not much info is required.
This is where you can register, I believe as a ‘Persone Fisiche’ – yes, it is all in Italian, go to: https://www.e.pisa.it – then click on ‘Nuovo Utente’ and then ‘Persone Fisiche’ and fill in your details, although the Codice Fiscale obligatory section may cause problems because you would need to get one first………. No, this ain’t simple.
I could help someone with the registration process if they wish.
I also asked the Police if they were aware of any con and they said that they were not.
With regard to the fine documents, I have two copies and both concern different hire cars from different hire companies. The places of residence given are different too. I would say that these documents are genuine, but being able to check via the Pisa council site would be better.
Hmm. I’m considering going to Italy again at some point – though the experience has left me with a rather unpleasant taste! I really would *not* have gone into the charge zone if I’d have known, and had all this hassle! Lesson to learn that you run such risks if you don’t understand the language, but I’d argue that since we’ve all been EU members for a long time, signage which is a bit more graphical/multicultural/pan-euro-language-friendly should be used!
Thanks Alex for passing on the info though. I couldn’t get the website to work – I’m guessing there’s an ID somewhere in your link that stops it working. I’ll look through the pisa website though.
hey, traveling to Italy used to be fun BECAUSE YOU COULD drive on opposite direction in one way streets, drive on sidewalks, do crazy things, park in double and triple row. But the italians have complex of inferiority towards the germans or other rule-loving strict northern europeans and want to imitate them, and now the fun of driving in italy is over.
Well, Sherpes, I suppose that is one way of looking at Italy’s tightening up of the enforcement of traffic offences! I guess you will have to find other countries that are fun to drive in now.
I would quite like to know just how many Italians, as opposed to non-Italians actually pay these fines…. Although, a few years back a new system was introduced whereby if you did not pay a fine you ran the risk of having your car taken away from you. This would have certainly encouraged more people to pay up, I’m sure.
Stu M – sorry the enormous link would not, er, link. You could go to the Pisa council site and wander around until you come upon the right section, I suppose, but we are back to the old ‘knowing Italian’ thing. I imagine that at some point Pisa and many others will get round to providing English language and other language versions of their site on air. In the meantime though, these international fines are going to continue to cause headaches for some time to come, I feel.
I seem to have had the same experience as others. I was actually in Bologna, but the situation was the same – it was the first day of my holiday, I was getting used to the hire car and Italian roads, I got lost, and I didn’t notice the restricted zone.
All the documentation looks genuine and I can believe I did (unintentionally) commit the offence, but: It took 5 months for the fine to land on my doormat, and the fine is 80 euros but the hire car company have added a 60 euro admin charge. I am not happy about either of these things – does anyone know if I have grounds for complaint on these?
As regards paying, the hire car company kept my credit card details and apparantly I signed something at the time to say they could recover costs such as this after the event. However, I’ve spoken to my credit card company and they say they weren’t authorised to keep my details or take a payment at a later date. So far no payment has been taken but if anything is my credit card company will help me. Does anyone know anything about this?
Many thanks for your help, and good luck to others in the same situation,
Richard
Richard – sorry to hear you are yet another to have been caught out – at least this time it was not the infamous Pisa no traffic zone.
Anyway, the 60 Euro admin charge sounds a bit steep. Most of the fines I have seen have come via the local traffic police, whereas it sounds as though yours have been ‘dressed up’ a little by the hire company. This should not have been necessary – they should have taken enough info for you to have got the fine at your house, minus any extra admin charges, at least that seems to have been what usually happens – Bologna could be different though. Maybe the hire company have already settled the fine; in which case you should be required to refund them with the 80 Euros + 1 Euro or so that the local post office charges for processing things like this.
Alex – thanks for your response.
Yeah, if I end up paying the fine, it won’t be too hard to swallow, but I’m keen to avoid the admin charge. That said, I spoke to a friend who used to work for a hire car company and she said they have teams of people to deal with drivers’ fines and this is how they pay for them, so if I end up paying that maybe I won’t feel too bad.
I guess I’m feeling philosophical about it all now!
Very interesting.
I have received two of these Pisa letters with fines for driving where we shouldn’t have. Both were the same night when my wife and I were desperately trying to find a hotel and fell foul of this Pisa zone thing. The letters were by registered post and the fines totalled about 200 euros, which was more than the cost of the car hire.
My wife wrote back to the Pisa authorities appologising for our ignorance but saying we wouldn’t pay as we were totally unaware of the restrictions.
We are going to Rome on Sunday for a few days and will discover whether I am going to be arrested for non payment as the hirer of the car.
Nick,
I would not worry too much about being arrested. Although I imagine you’ll see this reply when you get back from Rome. However, if you book into a hotel again in Pisa, then you may possibly get a visit from the local police – but things move quite slowly here, so I would not lose too much sleep over this. There is more chance of you being visited by the police if you end up back in Pisa some five years down the line, but which time someone may have updated and cross referenced some database.
The Pisa thing is a little odd, as I understand it up here in Milan foreign cars can enter the city centre. It’s a sort of catch 22 situation down in Pisa possibly – you may be able to drive into the centre if you are booked into a hotel there, but obviously to get to a hotel and book it you may need to drive into the centre. You may be able to use the hotel booking as a way to get off one of the fines you got. You could have a go at writing to them – in English, which would only be right seeing as they send the things out in English.
Good luck,
Alex
Thanks Alex,
We have returned without being arrested!
On the night in question we were driving a hire-car and didn’t manage to find a hotel room in Pisa as there was a conference using all the rooms in the town – hence all the driving around. We ended up staying out by the coast in an ancient hotel with those tea-towel style towels! (Am I supposed to be drying the pots with these?)
The letters from Pisa each came with an attached registered postcard – presumably these should have been returned by Royal Mail as proof that we had received the letters? So if we hadn’t written a reply, our receipt of the letters would not have been known.
Ciao
Ciao Nick,
Glad to hear that you had no arresting experiences whilst over here!
As for the postcards, I’m not sure what you were supposed to have done with them. In any event, I doubt whether the Pisa authorities would go to the trouble of seeking an European arrest warrant just because a fine has not been paid – but you never know. With regard to your reply, honesty is the best policy, but……….!
All the best,
Alex
I also have received a notification of contravention, stating that i was circulating in restricted traffic zone without authorisation in pisa.
They also state that the road conditions were such that the offender could not be stopped without causing danger to other vheicles. Alex has mentioned that a a photo was taken and proof of a fine can be checked.
My question would be why would they say (offender could not be stopped without causing danger to other vheicles) when the offence was recorder by a camera and if the have photgraphic evidence why is this not attached to the fine as proof.
I did not sign for this letter so thay have no proof of me actually receiving the Notification, So how would that stand up in a court of law.
Not paying them is my answer to there poor signs and no photo proof.
I have just received exactly the same sort of notification from Pisa this morning – unfortunately I signed for it before realising what it was. My ‘offence’ was allegedly committed while I was in Pisa in June 2006 so nearly 10 months ago! Oddly, I also received a fine notification in October last year which was paid by Hertz using my credit card details. As it was only 18 euros I didn’t pursue it, but when I look at the paperwork again, the date and time of the offence is exactly the same as this latest fine down to the minute (24/6/06 14:33)! However, the bank and IBAN codes are different on the two documents. I’ll be contacting Hertz to see if I can get any clarification from them.
George – good luck, and as you say, not signing ‘may’ mean that the fine is binned.
John – I think you, like many, signed without understanding what you were about to get, as most of us would; including me. I think contacting Hertz is the best thing to do in the first instance. I just hope you did not get two fines on the same day!
To everybody:
When I was a member of the AA, I was able to ask for free advice on motoring matters from the AA’s legal eagles. I would suggest that someone take legal advice on the subject of paying these fines and their validity both inside and outside the EC. But watch out for this reciprocal arrangement thing within the EC – although I don’t know if its effects will be retrospective in any way.
If anyone does get round to speaking to a lawyer about this, then please let me know how you get on so I can post something to help everyone out. Thanks in advance.
Alex
Hi — Same story here as John’s.
I recieved the letter today asking me for 110,4 euros for circulating in a traffic zone without authorisation. As John hertz paid it for me using my credit card details back in October 2006… or so i thought! I’ll need to confirm it with my credit card people.. Such a pain and 110 euro’s is not loose change.
I cant find hertz’s letter to me to check that it was at the same exact minute, but I’ll be persuing the issue with Hertz for clarification.
I like the AA legal advice idea too.. Surely you cant be fined for the same offence twice – or recieve 2 different fines for the same offence?
Please keep me posted
Richard
Similiar story here too…got the same fine notice for 99 euro, for an alleged offecnce in June 2006.
Im residemt in Ireland, so im not sure if the same principals apply here, similar to the UK?
Further to my earlier message, and seeing how many people seem to be affected by this, I decided to post the same report on the Daily Telegraph Travel hints and tips message board (www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/index.jhtml) to publicise it to a wider audience and hopefully warn people who are planning to go to Pisa. May be if enough people write in, the Telegraph might investigate further!
Thanks for that John. I have added something about your post on the Daily Telegraph Travel hints and tips message board from my main post Speeding Fines above.
Let’s hope something starts moving.
Alex
Hi, same story as everyone, 110.4 Euro’s for circulating in a restricted traffic zone. The offence is supposed to have happened on the 1st July 2006, is there any time limit for motoring offences i.e 6 months.
Jim
To keep you up to date, I have contacted hertz today and they also find it strange that they were not contacted directly regarding any fine whilst driving one of there rental vehicles. They would normaly pay for any fines from my credit card details. So they do not understand why I have received a traffic fine notice directly.
They are investigating my complaint to see if the Fine is indeed genuine or not.
These are interesting posts. I received a fine of €170 for a red light offence in august 2006 (I was there but don’t recall any red light offence). The hire car details appear correct.
What is odd is that the fine comes from European Municipality Outsourcing (EMO) but it has a page header with a poor copy of a web image of the Polizia Municipal.
It ends with ‘ The present notice is not a notification of a violation and so permits the driver to make the due payment in amicable circumstances thus avoiding the consequences of a notification according to international conventions in force’.
It was received in the normal post – not recorded.
It links to a web site where you have to log on to view details – presumably logging on will show you received it?
http://www.emo.nivi.it
Views appreciated
Interesting notes. I received 2 tickets from pisa (2 weeks apart) for restricted zone violations that were 7 minutes apart! The violation happened in June 2006! I had no idea what I did wrong while vacationing there. I did get a notice from hertz a couple months ago indicating the Pisa authorities requested operator info on the car I drove…. that cost 18 Euro for each notice. i argued with Hertz, that an 18 Euro Administrative charge from them was steep — but 2 charges for the same info for a violation 7 minutes apart is ridiculous… Hertz refunded oneo the charges…
I still don’t know wheteher to pay…certainly not 2 99.4 euro fines!
I guess I won’t be returning to Pisa again!
Steve
We went to Pisa in November last year. Hired a car from Hertz and guess what we have received this morning. Yes a notification from Hertz that we have committed a traffic offense whilst in Pisa and a charge of 18 Euros. We don’t yet know what the offense is and cant remember doing anything wrong. Indeed as a mature couple we go out of our way not to cause offense and to respect other countries laws Looking at others experiences it seems we can expect to receive a fine in excess of 100 Euros. Who knows, we might even have unknowingly committed this offence twice! We had arrived in Italy just two hours before and had the hire car for one hour. When I think of all the money we spent contributing to the Italian economy and supporting their tourist industry and how we came home vowing to return to relive what we thought was a wonderful holiday we are absolutely furious and will never return. We will pay the fine somehow but Italy will get no more money from us. Tourist in Pisa are sitting ducks! Going to cancel our Italian lessons at the local night school to help pay for the fine. Also looked on Trip adviser site and no mention of this nasty trick on there so maybe it should be posted on there also to warn other tourist how they can unwittingly fall fowl of the law. It might be legal but it is a scam to take money from unsuspecting tourist. I wonder just how much money the Pisa authorities are making from this. I dearly hope that they will be investigated by someone with some clout to let the whole of Europe know what they are doing.
More and more people seem to be being caught out by this Pisa thing. Write to your local MEP time, maybe? It does sound as though this needs to be looked into.
Alex
Hi Alex,
Have Emailed MEP. I will let you know if anything happens. If it gets looked into it might just mean better signposts, but at least it will help others not to fall into what seams a very unfair trap.
Well done and thanks Janet. Let’s hope this thing gets sorted out and soon. Summer is almost upon us, so many will be heading for Pisa….and ending up with a little ‘souvenir’ that they had not expected….
Same story,I have just received in New Zealand a registered notice of a 110.4 euro fine this time in May last year having arrived in Pisa at midnight, stayed in prebooked Hotel then driven to Florence in the morning.
The time of the alleged offence “Circulating in restricted traffic zone without authorisation” must have been after leaving the Hotel and finding the way to the motorway. No signs or any other way of knowing we had done wrong. Again we had a Hertz car and Hertz had deducted 18 euro’s from our credit card “to cover costs of supplying details to to the relevant authority” It is very easy to believe that someone in Hertz is in cahoots with the independant collection agency sepi-pisa to send out dodgy fines and split the proceeds. Best advice seems to avoid both Pisa and Hertz like the plague. Pity-Pisa is a lovely town (if you can take your eyes off the road) and Hertz supplied us with a brand new Mercedes, but the fines totalled more than the hire! someone is making a profit here I think.
I have e-mailed the only address which is the sepi-pisa one suggesting it is a scam and requesting proof that the offence and fine are genuine. Then I found your dialogue on the net and realised I am not alone!
Let’s hope Janet’s letter to her MEP gets some results. If this is a fiddle, then it is being orchestrated on a large scale. Nice way of filling local council coffers and making the signs difficult to see means that the income stream is just about guaranteed. Not that I am saying this is the case, but all these cases here do start to make you wonder. Wandering into Pisa by car does not seem to be a fine thing to do.
Hello,
Same story here.
Just received two fines from european municipality outsorcing. Fines were driving in a restricted zone in Arezzo (not Pisa), fines were made on 19:25 and 19:33 . So they were only 8 minutes apart ??? No I have to pay € 202. Does someone has any idea wether these are genuine, or has any clarification of some sort? Sanne from Belgium
Sanne – if you want to hop over to my Englishisin site, you can use the messaging system to send me a mail. I have some scans of the genuine articles so I could compare them for you if you like.
Alex
hi scras
I have had exactly the same problem with two fines from EMO on behalf Commune di Arezzo arriving today – again both 8 minutes apart – 19.04 and 19.12 in august last year- same total 202 euros – in a hire car from Hertz. This is either an illegal scam or a creative way of balancing local authority finances. I saw no signs and have driven in this area of arezzo many times over the last 20 years. I love Italy, particularily Arezzo and the surrounding area, but feel so angry that I would consider a new destination for future holidays.
Jane from London
OK, this needs checking out. These double fines are too difficult to swallow. Can someone tell me if they have photos of these blasted ‘warning’ signs. If so, I’ll post them here so everyone knows what to look out for.
It is starting to sound as though someone is exploiting tourists.
Alex
I got a speeding ticket April 2004 just outside pisa, I havent paid it. Will they try a collect it now.
Great site, Brian
Brian,
From what I understand the limit for enforcing traffic offence related fines is 5 years. Which means you will not be in the clear until 2009! And watch out for the reciprocal arrangements which are now in force.
Alex
Hello,
I visited Italy in July 2006, and received a EUR 93.70 fine from EMO on 1st February 2007 for “Vehicle crossing a limited hours area outside of authorized hours”. I was at the location mentioned, but was not aware to broken any laws. The document looked like a scam (bad print quality on the paper and of the logo) so I decided to ignore and not pay the fine. End of April 2007; I have now received a 2nd letter from EMO threatening that in case of nonpayment after 60 days, the liable amount will increase to EUR 161.70. Entered their website http://www.emo.nivi.it and tried in vain to login to “access information relative to my current situation”. I am still not sure whether this is a fraud or not. Have now spoken to the Danish Consumer Society (Gov´t org). Their legal advisor had not heard a about EMO before, which of course does not necessarily proof any fraud. I will e-mail them a scanned copy of the fine and they will subsequently contact their sister organisation in Italy to verify the authenticy of the fine. Greetings from Denmark.
Guess what? I’m also in the process of querying two “traffic violations” that occurred whilst driving a hertz rented car in Italy, on the “heel” (Commune de Gallipoli).
One alleged offence was going through a red light (we are sure we didn’t do this), and the other was driving into a “restricted zone” – again, we’re pretty sure we didn’t do this, didn’t see any signs etc.
Both were reported on the same day, at very similar times (need to check if it’s 8 minutes apart!)
One difference – we were never notified by Hertz, and only found out the details after seeing the two 18-Euro charges appear on our credit card many months after the actual rental (we rented in August 2006, charges came in on our card on December 2006 and March 2007).
We’ve got copies of the letters/fax from the Italian authorities to Hertz Italy (in Italian). Only one of them (the restricted zone offence) says there is a fine involved. The other (red light) mentions so sum of money.
Given that the Hertz conditions say a 15 Euro (+3) fine applies “per parking or traffic fine”, it seems that we shouldn;t have been charged for the red light offence, since there’s no evidence of an actual fine for this.
The whole thing reeks of a very neat scam by the authorities in Italy. Spot a rented car – note the number plate and time, make up a red light and congestion zone offence or two, send a letter or two to Hertz Italy, get 36 Euros – everybody’s happy. There’s of course no way these alleged incidents can be queried, some 6 or 9 months after they occurred.
Am still querying this with Hertz.
Howard
Still waiting to hear what that MEP may say and do….
On the subject of road signs in Italy in general, yes, they are difficult to see at times. You are often presented with a forest of the things and it can be nigh on impossible to understand what they mean, especially if you are not Italian.
Not sure why they would have sent you a notification if they did not expect you to pay a fine. Does not make much sense, Howard. Hertz treatment seems erroneous if there was nothing to pay. I’d hassle them over that.
Pisa does seem to be the hot-spot for these fines, but I imagine, in time, many others will say how they have been caught out by Italian road regulations.
I’m trying to sort things out with Hertz at the moment…
My original comment above maybe wasn’t as clear as it should have been. The first we knew of a problem was 2 18-Euro charges appearing on our credit card from Hertz Italy. We didn’t get any notification from Hertz or the Italian authorities about reported traffic violations. Only after several letters to Hertz did we get the info that the 18 Euro charges related to traffic incidents, and Hertz then sent us copies of the fax/letters from the Italian police.
The fact we weren’t notified – simply charged – is one thing that’s particularly annoying.
I’m also thinking of making this issue known to our MEPs – the whole thing leaves the rental customer with no defense, and the chance that the whole thing could be a neat scam for the Italian authorities to make a fast buck from rental customers makes me think it needs to be questioned and/or investigated.
So – thanks for putting up this page and sharing some very useful info and experiences!
Howard
I have just received a limited traffic area with authorization for travel whilst in Sicily, some 7 months ago. However the fine (104.45 euros) from emo relates to a location that I was not in on the day that they state; hence I could not have possibly committed the crime that they mention.
How does one go about contesting this, or should one ignore. It does not look official and print is poor quality.
unfortunately I no longer have the hire car documentation from this holiday 7 months ago.
Howard – the 18 Euro charges seem to be a bit much in view of the fact that you have not been fined, despite these traffic incidents. I don’t think this is a scam by the Italian authorities, but it does appear that foreign drivers tend to get caught easily – and someone somewhere must be benefiting from this extra income.
Andrew – your case is a difficult one, but not unusual. I have heard of people, Italians, being fined for a driving offence when they were 200 miles away from the location of the offence. In order to contest this, you will need to write them a letter stating your case. It would be best to do this in Italian and I would attempt to contact the hire care company and get hold of copies of the documentation – or even find receipts for hotels, etc that could prove that you were nowhere near the location of the offence.
Good luck
Alex
Drove to Pisa on Thursday (24th May), thanks in combination to our ignorance of the city, and the world’s worst sat nav (you know it’s bad when at one point to tells you to follow the road signs instead of listening to it) we ended up driving into a restricted zone.
We knew we were doing it. We made one wrong turn, and due to a queue of traffic behind us (and anyone who’s driven in Italy knows delaying other traffic is suicidal) and the narrow streets and one way systems we were past the point of no return.
Now it’s just a waiting game to see if we get word from the car hire company and a fine in the future.
I understand the need to restrict access to certain areas at certain times – it’s what keeps the cities beautiful for us to visit. However it would be nice if there was some leeway. We were in the restricted area for less than 5 minutes – and that was spent desperately trying to find our way out of it!
We would also have been happy to pay an on the spot fine for it – after all we knew exactly what we’d done. Something similar to the congestion charge payment in London – where you can pay up to a certain time after entry.
Fingers crossed…
Nadine,
I can wholly sympathise with your momentary lapse. It is very easy to get caught up in the flow of Italian traffic and if you hesitate for a nano second, you will be beeped at. This pressure means that it is inevitable that wrong turns are made and you end up where you did not intend to be.
It will be interesting to see if a fine arrives – but it does depend upon whether you passed one of the cameras. You may be lucky, but maybe not.
The congestion charge system would probably be an answer, but so far, such a system has yet to be adopted here, as far as I know.
Wait and see time, in your case, I’m afraid – as you know.
Please let me know if a fine does drop through your letter box.
Alex
We have just received notification of two parking offences in Pisa which we had made in October of last year. We paid for parking and we were totally unaware that we were in a restricted zone. We were informed by our car leasing company that they had paid the fine and that they had deducted the amount from our credit card which we had used to pay for the car. The letter was dated in April. On checking it appears that the fine has not yet been paid.
Eileen – this double fine thing is a little odd – if you read above, another commenter – Howard is in a similar situation – though not regarding Pisa.
Are you sure the hire company has actually paid the fines and not just charged an ‘admin’ fee for processing them? If you look at your credit card statement and you find two amounts for around 18 Euros, then I think this refers to the processing fees, not payment of the fines. This may explain why the fines have not yet been settled. As some point you should receive formal notification from the Pisa authorities re the actual fines.
Hope that helps.
All the best,
Alex
PS Suggestion: Could someone try contacting Tom Tom or any of the other sat nav providers and asking them to add the Pisa restricted traffic zone to their maps?
Hi there, I just wanted to conclude on my comment of 3rd May 2007 whether EMO is a legal entity or the fine that tey had submitted was a refined fraud; with the assistance of the Danish consumer organization, which is gov´t sponsored, it unfortunately (since I now have to pay) turns out that EMO are for real. In fact I already did the payment online by credit card – just as easy as when buying anything else on the web. All the best.
Hi Morten.
Many thanks for having independently checked out the EMO set-up. Although my own investigations meant that I had reached the same conclusion regarding EMO, it is good to hear a second opinion which confirms what I believed.
This will be useful info for all those who happen upon this blog entry.
Alex
A further update: after querying things with Hertz, they agreed to refund the two 18-Euro administration charges “as a gesture of goodwill”. Very pleased with this outcome! Thanks again to contributors to this page, very useful to have this extra info.
To clarify – the 18-Euro Hertz charges were added as an admin fee by Hertz Italy, following a request from the Italian authorities to Hertz Italy about who was renting the car in question. We have not yet had any direct correspondence from Italy about the traffic fines themselves.
We queried Hertz about this, and asked if we should expect a letter from Italy for the traffic fines to be paid. Interestingly, they said this might not happen. Was surprised by this!
So – haven’t (yet) been asked to pay any traffic fines yet, and had the associated Hertz admin charges refunded. Just shows it’s worth chasing the rental company.
Howard
Thanks for the update Howard – good news about the Hertz admin fees! Let’s hope those fines really don’t turn up.
“We queried Hertz about this, and asked if we should expect a letter from Italy for the traffic fines to be paid. Interestingly, they said this might not happen. Was surprised by this!”
I wonder if someone from the Italian authorities has been reading this entry in my blog…..! Hope someone from Pisa council finds his or her way here.
Blogger (and commenter) power??
All the best,
Alex
PS I’m going to get hold of that Make A Jazz Noise Here Frank Zappa album that you love – I love guitar, especially electric and electro acoustic stuff. One of these days I’ll get round to getting another geetar and trying to learn to play it! (I think my hands are too dinky) I’d love an Ovation electro acoustic model, and when funds permit…..I’ll get one and shave down the neck!! In which case I shall be back to your site which is full of very useful info. I’m glad you dropped in here!! Cheers!
My spouse was in Italy in June of 2006 and we too received the $18 Hertz charge and the SAME exact wording and numbers for the bank as others posted on here for “circulating in restricted traffic zone without authorization”…. Seems a bit odd that all infractions appear around the same time frame, with EXACT wording and bank numbers. We are from the US- not sure where others were from that posted here…
The item that I’m stuck on is, if the bank numbers are exactly the same on all of these “transactions/offenses”, then how in the world would Comune di Pisa know if it was my spouse that paid and not someone else???
I was relieved to see your postings on this matter! Thank you!!!!
I’m trying to fill out that form mentioned above from e.pisa.it and cannot find a “tax identification number” anywhere on the offense letter…??? what is this number? thanks!
Hi Kelly,
I think you can leave the Tax Identification number blank, because you don’t have one. I think this refers to the Italian Codice Fiscale – Fiscal Code which everyone who lives or works here legally gets. I shall have a look at the form and check that what I’ve said is accurate. I’ll post again here if it is not.
All the best,
Alex
Kelly,
I’ve had a look at the registration form – in Italian, and the first thing they ask for is the Codice Fiscale – and it is a required field. As you don’t have this, I’m not sure what you need to do. Maybe someone else here can advise you. I do know that there are sites where you can discover what your Italian tax code would be, but I’m not sure you could use a non-registered code. You could try it and see what happens. If you want to have a go at this let me know and I’ll tell you where to go. Otherwise, you could try entering your US (You are from the US??!!) social security number, I think it is.
Alex
Dont bother with phoning the DVLA number, they are not in the slightest bit interested and the miserable little grey man I spoke to said its nothing to do with them.
I was sent a speeding fine from my holiday last year (on the motorway near Pisa, they seem to be pretty hot round that way,)It looks pretty genuine it came registered to my home address via the car hire company i assume(they have not had any other involvement as far as admin fees charged to my credit card or suchlike) and had a nice B&W photo of me the wife and the kids in our little punto rattling down the motorway at 123km/h. I have not as yet paid (167 euros) as
1. I dont speak/read Italian and can’t understand it and
2. I stuck my head in the sand and hoped it would just go away.
Probably not the most sensible thing to do as we are planning on visiting another part of Italy later this year and wonder if that may cause any problems….anybody had experience of that?I probably should do something about it but there as always that bit of you that wants to stick two fingers up to authority.
Ian,
Sorry to hear about the grey man – maybe you got him on a grey day.
It sounds as though you have been hit with a fine from an authority that has not yet got round to issuing fines in other languages. The fine should provide you with information about an Italian bank account into which the money could be paid – see this comment above by Loren | December 24, 2006
If I were you, I would not worry too much about coming to Italy, especially if you go to another part. There is a slim chance that when the hotel registers your passport with the local police here in Italy, if you stay in a hotel, your non-payment might show up, but I doubt it. The IT systems here are not the most advanced in the western world, but they are getting better. Do please let us know if they mention your fine though – this would mean that things were getting worryingly efficient.
You could try the ostrich trick, but you might end up with another demand for an even higher amount, although, as I have observed before, I’m just not sure how far the Italian authorities would go to chase non-payment when the non-payer is not from Italy. By not paying, maybe you could help us all find out just what happens when you ignore these things…. Are you a gambling man? I’ll let you decide.
You could also try sticking two fingers up at the Italian authorities, but they would not understand you. You would get much more attention if you used a single finger – the middle one. I think they can still arrest you for this gesture….
All the best,
Alex
Plenty of grey days over here at the moment!
(plenty of grey people here as well)
To be honest I probably could work out where to send the money to if I made the effort but its gonna cost me if I do!!!So I wont and I will take the gamble, god damn it all I will
The authorities over here are getting frighteningly good at collecting fines in some areas (100% clear up rates are not uncommen ) and laughingly lackadaisical in others. A postcode lottery aon law enforcement
Would two fingers work if it was the middle finger on each hand?
Hi, in the same boat. Hired a car in Italy last August got a violation in Bologna which still escapes me what for.The ticket came through six months after the event and the hire car company paid it 80euros + 50 admin straight from debit card details.So far no problem,put it down to bad luck. Then two months ago I received two speeding tickets within a week, passed on by the hire car company this time 60 euros admin each one again taken straight from my bank.Despite getting an Italian friend to plead on my behalf to reduce the Admin charge SCICILY BY CAR would not budge. They haven’t paid the fines of 140 euros each (70km in a 50 zone althuogh I swear I drive extremely carefully through both the small villages where the offenses alledgedly happened as they are on the way to my mothers house and they are clearly signposted). I am feeling slightly wary as I go to Italy most years but am tempted to adopt ostrich approach. Hiring from PISA airport this year wish me luck!
Ed – yet another victim, I note. I could probably find out what the Bologna fine was for, if you have the original Italian document, and you really want to know, that is. Let me know.
As for this year’s trip – I notice that you are going to hire a car at Pisa airport. Eek! I hope you don’t feel the temptation to go into central Pisa by car while you are in the area. Central Pisa’s restricted traffic zone has become a little notorious, as you may have seen from all the comments here. Take care and everything will be fine
!
Have a good time on holiday here!
Regards,
Alex
I think this is all a huge scam. They see a rental car and fine them for what ever 5 euros or 10 euros for a parking viloation. Does not seem like much when taken right out of an account but that really adds up when they do it to thousands of people. I had two 8 euro fines for different parking violations and I just got a speeding ticket a year after the fact near Pisa. No police ever approached me or put anything on my vehicle while I was over there. They just sent the information to the rental company, sounds a little fishy to me. Sure I am going to pay the fines. I may have been speeding but I was only going the same speed as the rest of the traffic if you drive too slow over there you also run the risk of an accident. Oh well I won’t ever go back there and I will suggest that no one I know does either.
Hi can anyone give me advice. I have just recieved a fine for 178 euros for apparently speeding in Italy. I have no idea where the place of the offence is and also why has it taken nearly a year to process.
What will happen if I dont pay the fine and also has anyone contested a fine. Also it says on the fine document that if I contest the fine and thay still say I have to pay it I will have to pay double. This is rubbish and extortionate.
Please give me advice cheers David
Sorry about the late replies – I was on holiday and we had a hire car (eek!).
Andrew, I don’t think this is a scam, but I understand how people end up feeling scammed as a result of receiving a fine after being so totally unaware of entering zones in which they will be fined. Large clearly marked multi-lingual signs would be a great help in this area – or at least hire or foreign cars should be exempt.
David, it should say on the fine somewhere just where you were and what you did to get the fine. You could try contesting it, but you would need an English speaking Italian lawyer to do this and the cost would end up being more than the 178 Euros, I’m pretty sure. The doubling of fines is normal practice here and is designed to encourage people to pay up in time. If you are Italian, you pay and then contest, but this is not practicable for non-Italian residents and so is rather unfair to them.
To be honest, I think it is probably much easier for the Italian authorities to extract fine payments from foreigners than it is to get them from Italians who are great at coming up with all sorts of excuses, although, it has to be said that the Italian authorities are starting to crack down on Italians – even threatening to take their beloved cars away if they don’t pay up.
As I have commented before, those wonderful Euro MEPs should be sorting this out – someone had written to one of these people, but I’m not sure how they got on. Shame That’s Life is no longer shown in the UK – this sounds like a story for them or some travel programme. Maybe a few of those affected could try dropping a line to the BBC about this. I’m sure some presenter or other would not mind spending a little time in Italy investigating this sticky issue….
Alex
I can understand getting a ticket for driving in a restricted area as these are usually posted. But what irritates me is when I hear about foreigners from other parts of Europe who come here to Italy and get speeding tickets. I NEVER hear about Italians getting speeding tickets. They drive so reckless and irresponsible here it is terrible. I want to know where the surveillance cameras are on the Autostrada??? In Lombardia where I live it is getting more and more dangerous to drive. Just in the last 6 months my husband and I noted how horribly reckless Italian drivers are. It seems they have no compassion for their fellow man. In the town where I live north of Milan the driving is ruthless; men and women alike drive like devils. They don’t stop to let people walk across pedestrian walkways. They bully pedestrians off the sidewalks as they drive up on the sidewalk to park their cars !!! You never see police anywhere. You never see cameras recording speeding or reckless driving or bullying. Most foreigners who come here drive conservatively. I see how the foreing guests drive. Yet, the Italian authorities manage to give speeding tickets to the foreign drivers here. Very Interesting. The Italian system seems to have a double morality. Karin
What you say is very true Karin – foreign drivers are easy targets – they pay up and shut up. Whereas Italians, in the main, neither pay up nor shut up. This is why one of those MEP gods should be looking into this issue.
Regards,
Alex
Same boat here. I got this letter from Hertz today telling me that 18€ charged my credit card for giving information to the “Nessesary authorities”. It is commented with Offence: “Verbale fine on lane”. My belief up to this date was that if you violate anny law in Italy the police will take direct contact with you. Because of this was not true I thought it was a scam so I called the credit card company to block my credit card. I was in Milan in the beginning of April and now after 5 months they start messing with this offence that I don’t know wath is. I live in Norway and we are not a member of the EU. If I recieve this Fine my plan is to ask for Evidence, If evidence is not given to me I will go to the Police here in Norway and report it as a Freud. I will simply claim that this offence never happend. Than the norwegian laws is like this: Companies that are making people pay by force can not take this case because than they will lose their authorisation if they participate in Freud. However I am not sure if the Italians have anny agreement with Norway to get theese money by force annyway. And after this I rather go to Spain next time.
I have received notification of a speeding fine from Pisa.
The date of the offence is October 06, it is now September 07.
The document is very kindly translated into English.
According to the document, I am the owner of the car in question (whereas I hired the car).
The document gives an account number into which the fine (57 Euros) is to be paid
Oh, it cost the person sending it 4 Euros.
So is it genuine?
If I pay an amount into the numbered account given, how do the police know it is from me? I could have it paid from an account not in my name. The only way they could tell that I had paid fine is if there was an account opened for my fine only – and nothing else. Do you think the Pisa police have an opened a separate bank account for everyone to whom they issue a fine?
However, I am not going to just ignore it. Clearly someone has passed my hire car details (from Pisa) on to these scammers. What other information do they have on me?
If someone were to rob a shop of £100, people would quite rightly expect the perpetrator to be arrested. If someone sets up a bogus bank account to collect money from people they have scammed, I would expect the police to ask; who owns the account, checkout who has paid money into the account and why, and arrest those concerned. But sadly the police have better things to do (catch motorists on speed cameras).
I expect the scammers to respond to this message – explaining that the fine is genuine and how the police can trace that my fine has been paid.
There are other faults with the document – but I don’t want to give the scammers too much information – anyway, why should they bother to improve the fake speeding notice, if so many are falling for it.
Mike.
Mike, I’ll email you about this.
Alex
Alex
I’ve just received aletter from Europcar charging 36 euros for administration. Attached were two letters from the Rome Polizia Municipale to Europcar, alleging my hire car went into restriced traffic zones on the 4th & 5th May 2006!
We were there on hols on those dates with a Europcar hire car, but after all this time – should I pay the police?
The document says the fine should be paid within 60 days!! or else it escalates to 275 euros. So I guess I would be charged 275 for each offence if I paid now, although of course – like others- I was unaware that I’d gone into these ‘restricted zones’.
Should I wait for something to come to me direct from the Police?
Is the offence now ‘out of date’?
Alan
Hi Alan,
Sorry to hear about your fine, but you raise an interesting issue. That is, should you pay the original fine or the 275 Euros, times 2? A very good question, but seeing as you did not receive the notification until recently, the 60 days should run from the date of receipt not the date of offence. However, i do not know the rules on this. I’ll give the police a ring tomorrow and ask them. Then I’ll post back here.
Alas, the fine is not out of date. Info on the State Police Site mentions 5 years before the fine becomes expires.
Alex
Alex seems very keen on promoting the fact that these fines are genuine – he says he will e-mail me re my comments above (I await his e-mail with interest).
Does Alex have my e-mail address?
Imagine if the police in your home country, wrote to you advising of a motoring offence and gave details of a bank account into which to pay the fine. They provided no reference number to allow traceability of payment.
Either such a scheme is a scam or the police have no way of determining who has paid their fine.
Take my ‘fine’ of 57 euros, let us say, my uncle in the USA pays the fine on my behalf – how the hell do the police in Pisa know my fine has been paid (unless they have set up an account for my fine only)?
Alex is going to expalin this one!!!!!
I suspect the poilce might be interested in Alex’s e-mail and postal address as part of their investigation into this scam.
Mike,
Oh dear, looks as though I might get myself in hot water over this. Let me say that I am not at all ‘keen’ on promoting the fact that these fines are genuine, and I would be quite happy for the police to have my email address etc, then at least I would know something is being done about this and so I too could establish whether these fines are in actual fact genuine and then let people know.
What I try to do, when I have the time, is ringing someone, mentioning the offence number and waiting for them to give me the car registration plate details and model – it is not an exhaustive check, I know, but it is all I can really do to check these things out. Sorry, if it is not enough. If someone can suggest a better way, then I’d be happy to hear it and publish it on this site.
I am neither an investigator, lawyer or a member of any police force, and I have tried to point out that I really am no expert on this. I don’t think I have ever made myself out to be one, and I do try to encourage others to check with the authorities in their own countries. What I can do, if you want, is contact the authorities here, but I maybe just making this all up and taking my cut – which could be the case – and if you believe this, and if I offer some assistance, you can simply say no. This would be understandable.
Maybe I should stop trying to help, and hope that, as I have mentioned on more than one occasion, someone contacts an MEP, or speaks to a lawyer in their own country.
As for your email address, I am assuming that the one you left is genuine. If not, and I would not be too surprised if it is not, after all, you do not know me from Adam, which means you have every right to be suspicious.
As for the case of your uncle paying the fine on your behalf, as long as someone pays the money into the bank account which the Pisa police use, and quote the correct reference number, then the matter is closed. It does not matter who pays, so much as if the amount is settled. At least this means that the next time you come to Italy and go to Pisa, nobody will come knocking on your hotel room door (although the chances of this happening are slim) asking you to pay a fine.
If you do want to give the US or UK police my email, then please do by all means. If they think I can help, or wish to check that I am not in the scam, that’s fine by me. Got nothing to hide.
I suppose I should have expected a comment like this at some point. Oh well, trying to help probably was not a good idea. Sorry. I shall have a think about how to proceed in the future.
Kind regards,
Alex
Mike, I have sent a mail to the address you left.
Alex
Alex
Can you pay these fines using a VISA card by giving it’s number to the local police over the phone?
Alan
hi, i have just received a speeding fine from italy for october 2006 stating i need to pay a fine of 57.30 euros .This car was a hire car for my husband to drive not me but was my credit card details we left with the company.it came in an evelope which said needs to be signed for ,this i didnt do, it was just on my door mat with an orange card which is totally in italian but looks to me from avis car hire .it also gives me a website to go to ,to see photoshot but this page doesnt work .some people have said just to ignore it has i didnt sign for it but am worried by this and dont really know what to do as it was definately not me driving .
Deb
Alan,
I had a look at the Rome Municipal Council site, but it looks as though there is no way to settle fines over the phone by Visa, and anyway, I would be a bit wary about giving this information over the phone, if that is, you could find someone who can understand you.
I have just had a word with a person on the number 060606, the number given to me by the municipal police in Rome, and was told: a) the 60 days runs from the date of notification of offence b) the fine can be paid by bank transfer using the following info:
Beneficiary: Tesoriera del comune di Roma
Bank: Banca di Roma
iban code: it80e0300205117000000010171
swift code: brom it r1052
And within the bank transfer info include some brief details about the dates and times of the offence, car reg (targa) and the ‘Casuale’, if you can find it, which should be the offence reference number, so they will know who has paid what and why.
In light of a recent comment, I would also like to point out that although I have used my best efforts to obtain the information provided here, I have not verified it. Please can you do this independently, so that you can be certain that I am not attempting to ‘scam’ you. I am not a policeman, expert on the subject of international fine payment or a lawyer, so I cannot guarantee the accuracy of the information I provide.
Sorry about the blurb above, Alan, but I think I’m going to have to do this from now on to cover my back.
Hope the info helps – and I’ve posted it here so that everyone else can see what I have done and so others may also benefit from it and use it to confirm info they may have. And so that I will not be considered a potential scammer!
Kind regards,
Alex
Deb,
Where did you get the fine, Rome, Milan or elsewhere? In any case, I’m not too sure as to what you should do as you were not driving. The car hire documentation should specify who was the named driver, so you could use that in your defence. In any case, you should probably write back to them, in English, if you are from the UK, quote the details and tell them you were not driving at the time. But, as I said before, I’m not sure how you should proceed. Perhaps you could try speaking to someone at your local police station or the AA or RAC.
Please note that I am not a policeman, expert on the subject of international fine payment or a lawyer, so I cannot guarantee the accuracy of the information and/or opinions I provide.
Kind regards,
Alex
Further to my comments above, re payment of the fine from a bank not in my name. I have recently conducted a payment for goods via International Payment (as requested by the speeding fine document). The seller would not accept payment by credit card, claiming his bank would charge 5%, so I agreed to pay by bank transfer. I knew that if the guy did a runner, I would only have a piece of paper saying I had paid, but it looked a legit website, with feedback from satisfied customers, and everything went OK.
I still have my copy of the International Payment form that I completed to make the transaction. Although there is space on the form for a reference number, it is clearly optional (as I did not enter anything). Assuming someone else paid my speeding fine and did not enter any (or the correct) reference number – they (the Pisa police or the scammers) would have no way of knowing who the payment was from or what it was for.
The instructions for payment do not require any reference number to be quoted.
The rear of the speeding notice gives a web address claiming ‘access to the photographic document’ (I have not tried it). I know that the police could choose any name for their website – but having the word ‘BABY’ in the address, is just a bit amateurish.
Mike.
I’m still very worried about you, Alex.
You seem to be making things up as you go along.
Now, I have written many e-mails in which I have said that I would get back to someone, with an answer that I did not have to hand. Never, have I then included the answer in that same e-mail, as you have done, re the fine being valid for 5 years.
I don’t know how long the Italian police have to issue notification of a fine, for it to be valid – but imagine that period is 5 years – who the hell is going to remember where they were 5 years ago? Some people I know would not be able to recall the model of car they owned. I must admit, I do not know how long the UK police have to notify someone of a speeding offence, but I would be very surprised if it was longer than 60 days, and is probably 30 days. From what you say, that period in Italy is 1,825 days !!!!
I also note that you have started advising people to include some reference to the fine within their payment details, since my first comments. Clearly the Italian police have some way of tying up a payment from anyone in the world (with no relation to the speeding fine) to the speeding fine – otherwise they would be asking for this information themselves.
Mike.
Thanks for your comments, Alex.
It would appear that virtually every one of the recent entries on your site is outside the 150 days time limit for notification of fines – some over 400 days [around 330 days in my case].
Do the Italian police know the law in their own country?
I know that you say that you are not certain of the time limit – but even 150 days would appear excessive.
I’m sorry, but there are more holes in the Italian traffic fines reported on your blog, than a piece of Swiss cheese.
Mike.
Thank you for worrying about me Mike. Let me clarify the fine validity situation, as I understand it, but, as I have stressed to point out I am not an expert – I have not made any claim to be one. But you seem to think I am making myself out to be one.
Anyway back to these fines. If this type of fine is considered to be an infraction of the Italian highway code – I think it is, but I’m not sure – I’m not an expert, then the total period allowed from receipt of the fine to the collection of payment is 5 years. But, having said this, and this may get some people off here, the local authority in which the infraction takes place, appears to have 150 days from the offence to get the fine to the offender, otherwise it is no longer valid apparently. This is my interpretation, but I am no expert on this (I have taken this info from the Italian state police site here:
Look for Risposta n 15.
So Alan and Deb above possibly have not received a valid fine. I say possibly because I AM NOT AN EXPERT on this, so this needs checking out and confirming.
As for requesting people to make some reference to the fine in their payment details, well, this seems obvious to me, but I thought restating it might be helpful (I have mentioned this in emails to others – before you came on the scene). Giving a reference does not do any harm – belt and braces approach. In Italy, things can be odd and unreliable – just the way the country is.
I suggest you read the PLEASE READ THIS section of my original post above – which I put there ages ago, just in case someone came along and complained about my comments. I knew it would happen one day.
I have attempted to check things out a little, because I’d like to try and help but a) it’s not my job b) I am not an expert c) what I do is an informal attempt to help. I hope the commenters here understand this.
If you want to check this out fully, go for it, get onto a lawyer etc. And if find that some of my comments are not accurate, let me know, and I’ll remove/correct them. No problem – and there are probably inaccuracies because, as you fail to understand I am not an expert on this subject.
Kind regards,
Alex
PS this site is my blog, it is not the AA, RAC or any other formal informational site – if you want conclusive info on this – go to the proper authorities, get in touch with your MEP, which is something I have already mentioned a number of times.
Mike, you are right, I know that there are many holes in the Italian traffic fines reported here. That is Italy – complex and confusing. And I bet that if you tried to contact 3 different local authorities here about these darned fines, you would get three different opinions. That’s the way it is. Check out Beppe Grillo’s (There is an English version if your Italian is not too hot) blog to get an understanding of just how things don’t work here.
Looking through the comments and my original post above, I think I would be right in saying that I have tried to encourage someone to look into this issue. I am not an expert, says he yet again, so I am just not the person to be doing the checking out – I am not qualified to do so, I know.
All I can hope is that this blog post and its many comments may catch the attention of someone out there and that something will end up being done. Then perhaps we can discover whether this is some kind of scam. I don’t think it is, but I just do not know.
Best regards,
Alex
ALex
Interesting comments about fines. I as sure that you are right about the inconsistencies of the italian “legal” system. I believe that unless you have had experience of some countries its hard to appreciate the way they operate. I am sorry to see others assuming you are a scammer. Having read your blog I would say that an IBAN account number, swift code and bank name along with a reference eg reg number would be all you would need to pay a fine. I have made many euro payments in connection with having property in Spain and thats the details you nee. All this about international payment orders is just an old way of doing things and is not the easy or right way to do it. Anyone making a Euro payment to Italy can do so from their bank with no hassel. SO I don’t buy the excuse to note make a payment ouit of an standard account.
Now to my fun – went to Pisa and Florence over th 26th to 29th May 2007 and hey presto I get today a note from Avis about a fine heading my way for Florence in a restricted area. Sounds sadly genuine but as you say poor sign posts help matters if you want to screw tourists. My question is whether a letter is worth the effort in Italian after the event ie its been paid. Secondly how do you log on to these police sites that show the pictures – Avis has the web site and an eg. Will the fine show a log on reference?
Lastly, I would not get spooked by Mike. Not sure what his issue is.
kind regards
Simon
Simon,
Thanks for your support! And for your info re making Euro payments to Italy. I will admit to being a little spooked by dear old Mike, and I half expect INTERPOL to turn up and accuse me of being an international scammer! But to his credit, Mike did thank me for my info, so I hope he will not report me to the cops. I make no money from this here blog, I do it for fun, but I was expecting someone like Mike to come along one day, hence my Please Read This section in the main post way above all the comments. Nowadays you need to cover your back, just in case….
Now, to your fun! In my opinion, a letter after the fine has been paid will not get much further than the bin, alas. They have the cash. However, you could try, you never know.
Re the web site, you should be able to use the fine reference code or ‘Causale’ in Italian, to access the info about your fine. Before you can log on, you will probably need to register – this should not be too much of a problem even if the site is in Italian, however, the fun starts when you are faced with a request for a ‘codice fiscale’ a sort of Italian tax code, which most foreigners do not have. In this case, you can either try to leave the field blank or try here: http://www.moduli.it/cms.php/codfis
(21/09/07 – link to codice fiscale calculator corrected – Please let me know if it does not work – Alex)
This site, in Italian and trustworthy I believe, will allow you to calculate your very own Codice Fiscale, although it is not infallible, and the result may not be usable, but you could give it a try – there are other similar sites out there, but do not pay for this code calculation service. (30 dollars on one site to have the ‘software in English’ – a real 500% scam!)
To help you: ‘Cognome’ is surname, ‘Nome’, your first name – Simon, and ‘sesso’, is sex, M is male (t’other F is ‘female’, but I reckon you could have worked that out!) and put ‘Gran Bretagna’ – Great Britain – in the ‘luogo di nascita’ section (I think you are from the UK??) and finally, put EE in the ‘Prov’ field, fill in the ‘data di nascita’ which is date of birth. Hit ‘Calcola’ and you should be good to go. PS this system got my codice fiscale spot on!
Then you can have a go at registering on the site where your holiday snaps from the dark side are kept.
Hope that helps,
Cheers Simon – and remember I am not an expert!!!!
I have returned to this Blog often to get some updates. In my first post several days ago I told that I received a letter from Hertz where I was charged the 18€ administration fee. I thought it was a scam so I blocked my credit card. I found this blog and had a lot of interesting reading before I called the car rental company (Hertz). This blog made me realize that my Fine can be real. However I have still not got the Fine it selves.
Before I called Hertz I did some “homework” where I prepared my selves what to say (thanks to this blogg!!!).
Than I called them: (This is a bit simplified, but gives you an idea about my feedback to Hertz)
First I told them that charging my CC after 5 months initially made me think about a scam, than I blocked my CC.
Than I told them that I had investigated this my selves. And for my case this fine probably was real.
I than told them that these Italian Fine’s is a problem for tourists in rental cars especially. And here I made a point of that people are being so confused about this that there exists blogs on the internet where this is being discussed and Hertz is mentioned explicit. (I said “blogs” but so far I only know about this blog). I pointed out that “People” are discussing whether these fines are real when the rental companies are charging their customers for administration fee anyway. And I ended my “speech” with: Due to my observations there is a growing opinion among people in the blogs that the combination of Hertz** in Pisa or Milano is to be avoided. Because some people doubt the realness of the Fines. And people are thinking that the car rental companies are cooperating with the authorities in squeezing the tourists for money.
** Since I was talking to Hertz i gave all the pepper to them. But I realise that other companies also are mentioned. I did not give the link or address to this blog. My basic Idea with the feedback was to make them understand that “if you f**k the tourists they will f**k you” and the Fine’s is a real problem that put their name into shame because when Italians drive like they are late for their own funeral, well-driving tourists are bugged with Fines for being in a restricted area.
The Customer Service did actually thank me for the feedback and called my speech “interesting”.
Thanks for this Blogg Alex!!
Asbjorn – First, thanks for your thanks. Second, thanks for drawing Hertz’s attention to this little problem. Let’s hope it starts an internal investigation, and that Hertz at least manage to establish that nothing untoward is going on with regard to its operations. If it is, and I not for one moment saying that it is, then Hertz brand image could end up being dented. I do hope Hertz’s customer service sits up and takes notice, and just does not sit on this issue and file it away as being a minor complaint.
It’s a shame that no newspapers are looking into this, too.
Incidentally, I know of three or so forums where this issue has come up and two have linked to this post, so at least people are becoming aware that this is going on.
Watch this space time, I feel.
Thanks again, Asbjorn.
Kind regards,
Alex
Ciao,
I used my friends car when I was visiting in Italy. Now she has got a speeding ticket by mail. Propably they have had some camera/radar contorl in a highway where I drove too fast. I’d like to know if the speeding fine is for a owner of the car in this situation. Should it belong to the driver of the car. Will she get some nasty consequences if she doesn’t pay the fine.
Respect,
-Arthuro
Arthuro,
First, I am not an expert, so please have what I say checked.
Now, check that the fine is actually for a speeding offence and not some minor infraction that will not lead to points being deducted from an Italian driving licence.
If the fine is for speeding, then, as I understand it, under Italian law your Italian friend is obliged to pass your details, driving licence, address, etc to whoever issued the fine within 60 days of the notification of the offence. See, in Italian, here
Otherwise, your friend had better pay the fine or she may face another fine of between 250 and 1000 Euros. If your fine concerns an offence which leads to the deduction of points from an Italian driving licence, and your friend pays, she will lose some of the 20 points that each Italian driver has on his or her licence. Lose all twenty and the driver concerned will be required to re-take the Italian driving test. This is something to keep in mind. So, the fine, in answer to your question, applies to the driver of the car, not the owner, at the time of the offence.
If your friend does not pay the fine, the amount will increase and things will become more complicated for her. So get her to pass your details to the fine issuers, if there is still time.
Hope that helps, but do check what I have said.
Kind regards,
Alex
Arthuro,
One other thing, if the fine is for something that will not cause points to be deducted from your friend’s licence, then you could ask her to pay it and then send her the money. In this case, the fine will be settled and the matter should go no further.
But, please get a second opinion on this. Sorry to be such a bore about this, but I feel that I need to cover my back in case someone accuses me of giving them the wrong info and they end up getting in trouble as a result of following my informal advice. Or worse, I end up being labelled as a scammer.
Thanks for reading.
To all readers:
Maybe someone else here could either confirm or otherwise that what I have been saying is accurate or not. I would have no problem at all with being corrected, in fact I would welcome it – then at least everyone will have something concrete to go on.
Cheers to one and all,
Alex
Thanks Alex! For using a lot of time on answering people in this blog. I have seen that there have been posts where people have started to doubt your intensions. I have spendt some time in reading most of the postings here and I have to say clearly: Not at any time have any of your posts or comments made me doubt your intensions. For me it is clear that you are not a scamer. I just wanted to write wath I think, and probably most of everyone else in here also thinks. Thanks for beeing honest, but I think it should not be nessesary for you to point out that you are “not an expert” all the time. The people comming to this blog should simply take their time to read the blog before they start to mean anything about the intensions behind the blog, and the answer will come by it selves. I just want to give you clear support on this issue.
Thanks,
Asbjorn
I have also recently received notification of a traffic violation (driving in a restricted zone) in July 06. Europcar had deducted an €18 admin fee from my credit card, and has sent me a copy of page 1 of the polizia municipale document. This mentions the €68 fine, 60 days to pay, and the higher fine of €275. However I found a statement on the web that the time limit for notification of the fine is 150 days. When I raised this with Europcar in Rome, they said that the police have 150 days to notify the owner – the car rental company, who then have 60 days to reply to the police with the renter’s details, and the police have then a further 150 days to contact the renter directly, making a total of 360 days for the violation to be valid. I have yet to receive anything formal from the police, and I am now outside the 360 day period. So I wonder if I am now in the clear, or should I pay?
Asbjorn – thanks once again for being so supportive. I don’t expect any thanks for trying to help out a little, but when I am thanked, it is greatly appreciated. So, cheers once again! I think I will continue to point out that I am not an expert – although I do feel a bit silly doing it – this is only a little blog after all!
Sean – OK, I’ve had a look into this time limits thing a bit more and from what I can make out from the Italian Automobile Club site here:
http://www.aci.it/index.php?id=427
There is indeed, as you say, a time limit of 150 days for the notification of the fine, if the individual committing the violation is resident in Italy. This limit extends to 360 days for individuals committing violations who are not resident in Italy, however, both these time limits run from as soon as the actual offender has been identified:
In Italian: La Corte Costituzionale, con sentenza 198/1996, ha stabilito che il termine dei 150 giorni, nel caso in cui l’identificazione dell’effettivo trasgressore avvenga successivamente rispetto al momento in cui la violazione è stata commessa, decorre dalla data in cui l’autorità è in grado di identificarlo.
My translation: Decision 198/1996 of the Constitutional Court established that the 150 (360) day period in situations in which the identification of the actual offender is subsequent to the moment in which the violation occurred shall run from the date the authority is able to identify such offender.
So, in your case, it appears that the 360 days starts running from as soon as the police have been advised by the car rental company who you are, so this means presumably that the police must send you a fine within this 360 day period, otherwise it is no longer valid.
My understanding is that you now need to know when the rental company got round to telling the police who you are and then add 360 days so you can check by when the police should send you this fine. For the moment, seeing as you personally have not yet received any notification from the police, you may get away with this.
Let’s hope nothing drops through the letter box. Please have my translation checked out – sorry, but I’m going to point out that I am not an expert on this subject yet again.
Hope that helps,
Kind regards,
Alex
PS I shall add the info about the time limits thing to my main post.
Many thanks Alex.
Your translation is perfect, as far as I can see. It looks like I had better pay up before the fine increases to €275.
No worries Sean. Glad to have been of help.
Hi I got a fine for speeding its 178 euros and it says if I dont pay it will be 321 euros.
Can any one tell me a, has anyone not paid the fine and got away with it.
b, what web site do I go on to register the fine I have no idea how to contact the police in Italy.
c, Do people living outside the UK get this stupid treatment
if they hire a car and comitt a trafic offence in Britain.
I personally think its a rip off the Italian have got a bleeding cheek.
all the best David
Hi David,
Sorry to hear about yet another fine.
About a) I’ll wait until someone else replies regarding not having paid a fine.
Now, b) You should be able to find the website from the area of Italy in which you collected the fine. Although it is likely that the website will be in Italian, alas. I know this makes matters difficult, and I agree that if they are sending out fines all over the world, then the web sites should be in various languages.
And, c) Yes, quite a few of the comments here have been made by people from outside the UK, if that is any consolation.
As for the rip off thing – if you think this then write to your MEP, local MP, the AA or RAC etc and ask them to look into it – which is something I have suggested more than once.
All the best,
Alex
Hi Alex…
Very helpfull indeed. I just received a charge from the rental car company for administrative costs (€18).
Reason is: Verbale fine on line, but I have not received anything from the Police or the tranit authority in Italy. By the way, I was in Pisa during the days of the alleged infraction.
What does “Verbale fine on line” means?
What should I do?
Thanks
Hi,
My story goes like this:
I hired a car in Italy in July 06, my credit card was charged 18€ in July 07, I received a normal letter containing two bad photocopies of official looking document in August 07 (letter was dated in the same day that administration fee was charged – it took some 30 days to be delivered to me). After some intensive reading and guessing I finally realized the document being a some sort of fine for “zona traffico limitato”.
Total was around 70 euros and some polizia municipale office hours were mentioned for paying purposes… Since there were clearly no way I could pay it abroad, I didn’t bother do anything about it.
So after that, a few days ago I received a note about incoming registered mail from Italy, polizia municipale, etc. and decided to check my options before singing any receipt for receiving it…
Another website I found mentioned a time limit for delivering the fine (150 days for Italian residents and 360 days for foreigners), without any reference to identification of actual offender or anything. Just plain time limit starting from the day the traffic violation was committed.
So, basically I’d like to think I t have nothing to worry about the fine since its way over 360 days from the date of the violation, BUT, your interpretation seems very different from that…. Now I’m wondering how much the notification time can be extended…? And if I don’t officially “receive” (sing for receiving the letter in a post office) the fine, how long they might be trying to contact me… 360 days + then another 360 days and so on, maybe?
I would really appreciate if anyone here knew the details.
Anyway, it was nice to find and read this thread on your blog, Alex. Thanks for that!
Luis, glad you found the info useful. Now, I think that Verbale Fine on line” means, “Details of fine on-line”, although I could be wrong although my Italian law dictionary says that ‘verbale’ means ‘report’ or ‘record’ which seems to make some sense.
I know that the photographs taken by speed cameras can be viewed on-line via the relevant police website – try here: https://secure.comune.pisa.it/tzv/Login.jsp
This info may help:
Numero verbale: ‘Offence number’
(solo il numero senza lettere) ‘(only the number without letters)’
Anno: ‘Year’
Targa: ‘Licence/Registration Plate number’
Data violazione (gg/mm): ‘Date of violation (dd/mm)’
Hope that helps – kind regards, Alex
Keijo, I’m not sure about this – if you look at my original post, towards the bottom, you will see a total time of about 567 days for the police here to get the fine to you. Beyond this, the fine cannot be collected any more, as I understand things. Now, if you refuse to accept the registered letter, well, I don’t know how this affects the situation. If, on the other hand, the registered letter just goes back because you have moved house, then I guess that would be the end of the story, short of the Italian police coming to your country to hunt you down! But I don’t think this is very likely.
I suppose theoretically if you keep on refusing these registered letters then eventually the fine will expire, but you would need to check this with a lawyer or some other expert.
Let’s see if anyone else that visits can help.
Thanks for dropping in,
Kind regards, Alex
I have received a fine notification from Pisa authorities from May 2006. I received this by registered post 16 months (Sept 2007) from the time of the offence. I have been to Italy in May 2007 and hired a car also and did not have an issue hiring a car etc. On the fine notification there is a web address with a photo of the offence… so I think mine is legitimate, however I’m rightly pissed that it’s 16 months later… and it’s for €165.30 and will double withibn 60 days!!!!..
We were in Italy in May 2007, holidaying from Australia, we hired an Avis car in Venice and drove very slowly to Florence, we stopped our car once, in Florence, to ask for directions to our hotel. We arrived at our hotel and purchased parking tickets daily from the hotel which we displayed on the dash of the car for the three days we were there. Three weeks ago we recieved a notice from Avis stating they had deducted 19 euro from our account for a speeding fine, we laughed at this because we drove through Florence at a snails pace.
Today, I, my husband, my sister, and her husband don’t see the humour as we have just recieved not from Avis, but from EMO a fine for 89.85 euro (Moved Around A Restricted Traffic Area Without Authorization.) We went with the traffic through Florence, parked our car for three days,purchased parking tickets, walked, and caught taxis. Our exit from Florence was very stess free, again with the flow of the traffic.
We have all looked at the notice and have considered it could be a scam as the notice looks a little fake, almost as though somebody has cut out three seperate sections and pasted them onto A4 paper and photocopied it.
I tried to go to http://www.emo.niv.it to test the site and my AntiVirus alerted me to a Trojanworm Virus.
I have emailed FOLIZIA MUNICIPALE but have heard nothing back at this stage. We are not sure what to do as the notice states we have 20 days to make payment the letter is dated 2007-09-28.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated
Rhonda, thanks for posting about your situation. I will not respond now, because I feel that I need to think about it a little.
I did try to click on the link you supplied, but I got a ‘can’t find the server at this address’ message, which was odd.
Alas, it appears that simply moving with the flow of traffic is no way of avoiding these ‘restricted traffic zones’, and, the signs are not easy to spot.
Having said the above, I suppose that there is a danger that unscrupulous types have been reading this post and the comments and have decided to set up a nice little scam – perhaps through contacts with the hire companies.
Although I am no expert on this, I have stated numerous times that someone needs to look into this situation, at least so that it becomes easier to establish the authenticity of these fines.
Anyway, I’ll get back to you on this.
Regards,
Alex
PS The guy who posted a few weeks ago accusing me of being part of a scam ring, is making me a little suspicious of his motives – maybe he was part of some scam ring and thought that putting the heat on me would direct suspicions away from him. Just a thought.
Alex,Thank you for your responce, I have done a little work over the past few days. This is what I have found Florence, Pisa, Seina, and Rome, possibly other areas have “Restricted Traffic Areas without Authorization” what this means is that you cannot drive in these cities without Authorization. Apparently the people who live or work in these areas have electronic devises installed in their cars. When you drive through these areas the camera picks up cars without the device and takes a photograph.They then send out fines which I understand,that is the Law.
However, they also, have another law, which is: while tourists are staying within these areas the hotel manager by Law must take a copy of your passport, international drivers licence, and Car Number Plate, the hotel manager by Law must send copies to the local Polizia within 8 days of your stay. So that if a car Number Plate is picked up on the camera they can check against their recording of Authorized vehicles of tourists residing, even if it be a few days.
Looking back the hotel manager did take our passports, Internation Drivers Licences,and Number Plate. We at first thought it odd, he didn’t explain, well maybe he did, he said, I need this so the Polizia, don’t come through the night and take you and your car to (Gaol) Australian (Jail) American) well we laught an agreed it must have been a Terrorist thing and went on with our holiday.
I have today emailed Polizia Municipale Comune Di Firenze, which is a different email address to the one on the Fine Notice, I have sent them details, of the hotel we stayed in and the nights we stayed, also, a copy of the fine.
I must say yesterday I was ready to give up, and finally was able to get to the site to pay the fine, a couple of clicks and there was a photograph of our car however,after another click, I had to agree, that I would allow (I think, I remember) future payments to be deducted from this account automatically for any other fines, well! this was a hire car so, I don’t think so.
I suspect a scam! I may be very wrong. I will let you know what happens.
A week ago, I emailed infoemo@nivi.it with no responce. this is the email address on the fine, my computor asks for received from the reciever, but nothing. Today it came through.
I now need to wait as I have recieved aknowledgment from the email too: Polizia Municipale Comune Di Firenze. Which I sent yesterday, I now need to wait for their comments.
I will let you know what the outcome is, who, knows how long, but I will let you know.
Just in case I lose this blog: my email is xxxxxxxxxxxxx (email address removed by Alex to protect commenter from spam)
Regards
Rhonda
Australia.
Hi Alex
Thanks again… given the fact that I have not received any official notification from the police, I have not offence number… all I have is a charge from the car hire Company, withthe date in which the alledge offence was committed.
What should I do?
Thanks
Luis
Rhonda – Many thanks for the info regarding telling the authorities that you are staying in a hotel within a restricted traffic area. Very useful, and I shall be adding it to the main post, way above here!
Cheers,
Alex
Luis,
Thanks for the thanks! Always appreciated.
As to what you should do, well, I would say move house – sorry! Only joking. I guess that you will just have to wait until the actual fine arrives, although from the experiences of others it is not altogether clear when the fine will get to you. However, on the basis that Hertz have charged you the admin fee, then this should mean that the police now know who you are. In which case, the fine could arrive at any time.
Keep an eye out for a registered letter from Italy, unless of course you happen to get lots of registered letters from here!
All the best,
Alex
Alex, Thank you for your support and also, thank you for removing my email address, I didn’t think about spam until after I had sent.
Regards.
Rhonda.
Today I also got the surprise carryover from the holiday that everyone else has. However, unlike most, I got not one, not two, but THREE of them all from a TWELVE minute period in May.
Apparently in driving to the hard to find hotel in Florence, I managed to hit three of the limited traffic areas and they’re very keen to talk to me about e300 in fines.
I’m going to try to get info and plot where the roads are compared to the hotel to see whether this is valid but really, no matter how genuine the offences are, some leaway needs to be given to tourists at times providing they’re not driving dangerously.
Hi Max,
Sorry to hear about three fines – I think that must be some kind of record here, and all in a twelve minute period.
I certainly agree with you regarding the leeway, but the cameras are rather impersonal, however, if you read Rhonda’s comment above, you will not that if you have pre-booked a hotel within a restricted traffic area you should tell the hotel staff, who should, in turn, advise the local police – will then exclude your car if it ends up being photographed.
I have not looked into this, so I am not sure which cities operate this exclusion idea (which seems reasonable). When I have a spare moment, I’ll try to find more information about this.
Kind regards,
Alex
same fine but from sardignia (travel in october 2006).
I have a look and it permit to find a private society employed by italian police to recover money in all europe.
European municipality outsourcing belong to NIVICREDIT SRL (www.nivi.it).
It seems to be legal … but I m sure that in France the french police come to you ordered by nivicredit to make you pay after the 60 days …It happens to a friend of mine with a fine caught in Pisa.
For myself wait and see …
I just hope to be helpful …
best regards
Stephane
Hi Stephane
Thanks for dropping in and telling us about your situation – everything helps.
Re the use of a private company to collect fine payments, this appears to be quite a common form of outsourcing in Italy, even if it must make people worry about the legitimacy of the fine.
The nivi site looks OK, but it is easy to make a site look OK.
Can you tell us some more about your friend in Pisa? Was he/she caught in Pisa? Did the Italian police come and collect the fine? Or is your friend French, and so did the French police go to his/her house to ask him/her to pay the fine he/she got in Pisa?
Kind regards,
Alex
Hi and thanks for this great blog !
I’m in the same case as Rhonda, possibly caught by a cam in Firenze. Like Rhonda, too, I’ve received a letter from EMO for 92,5 euros. After having a look at the website, it seems pretty fake, a student could have made it !
), and 3 days later I’ve an automatic answer telling me (in italian), that my mail as been forwarded to the competent officer ..
So I emailed the Police Municipality of Firenze (direz.pol.municipale@comune.fi.it) to have a confirmation. First, I have written in english, but after 3 days, no answer … So I have written in french (cause I’m French
Now I’m waiting for an answer …
Best regards,
Johan
PS : forgive me for my english, no problem for reading … but for writing it’s a little bit hard
Well, I have some news back from Florence, Italy.
Email received back from infoemo@nivi.it Which is the email address on the fine.
Dear Mr xxxxxx,
the Hotel Il Granduca where you were staying on the 28 and 29 May 2007 is outside the limited traffic area (ZTL) of Florence, so it wasn’t necessary to enter this area to get to the hotel.
For this reason Municipal Police won’t cancel your fine.
For any further information please feel free to contact us again.
Best Regards
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
I also, sent an email too: Polizia Municipale Comune Di Firenze, with an attachment copy of the fine. This was their responce.
Good morning,
it’ s better waiting for formal notification of fine ( from Municipal Police of Florence ) and then you can decide for payment or appeal.
Best regards.
xxxxxxxxxxxx
email: pm.verbali.notifiche@comune.fi.it
Well! maybe I am wrong but it looks to me that Municipal Police of Florence, didn’t see the attached fine as being official.
The email address for Florence Police:
pm.verbali.notifiche@comune.fi.it
Written by Alex.
“Rhonda’s comment above, you will not that if you have pre-booked a hotel within a restricted traffic area you should tell the hotel staff, who should, in turn, advise the local police – will then exclude your car if it ends up being photographed.”
Alex,
I hope I don’t offend you but I have a problem. I have a degee in history and every quote, must be quoted as it was.
I Wrote:
“However, they also, have another law, which is: while tourists are staying within these areas the hotel manager by Law must take a copy of your passport, international drivers licence, and Car Number Plate, the hotel manager by Law must send copies to the local Polizia within 8 days of your stay. So that if a car Number Plate is picked up on the camera they can check against their recording of Authorized vehicles of tourists residing, even if it be a few days.”
It doesn’t matter whether you have pre-booked a hotel or just driven into Florence, and found a hotel, and spent the night. You were residing in Florence on those nights.
We received an email back from our hotel management saying: Your stay 28-29 May 2007,was registered with Municipal Police of Florence. Please, contact us again if you have more problems.
The four of us were out to dinner last night the matter came up and we have decided not to pay.
I hope this helps.
Regards.
Rhonda.
Hi Johan,
Thanks for the thanks! Let’s wait and see what reply you receive….
Best regards,
Alex
PS Your written English is a whole lot better than my French, written or spoken:-)
Hi Rhonda,
Thanks for the progress update. Re this:
“Rhonda’s comment above, you will note that if you have pre-booked a hotel within a restricted traffic area you should tell the hotel staff, who should, in turn, advise the local police – will then exclude your car if it ends up being photographed.”
The ‘shoulds’ should have been ‘musts’!
Re what you said initially:
“However, they also, have another law, which is: while tourists are staying within these areas the hotel manager by Law must take a copy of your passport, international drivers licence, and Car Number Plate, the hotel manager by Law must send copies to the local Polizia within 8 days of your stay. So that if a car Number Plate is picked up on the camera they can check against their recording of Authorized vehicles of tourists residing, even if it be a few days.”
Two things. First, from what I understand all hoteliers in Italy are obliged to supply passport details to local police, but I’m not sure that they are obliged to ask nor to supply driving licence and registration details. If you would provide me with the source of your info, I’ll have a go at checking it out – with the usual caveat – I’m not an expert!
As to not paying – it will be interesting to hear what happens, so, if you wish, could you please let us know by writing here or contacting me through the blog’s contact system?
All the best, and thanks for keeping us posted,
Alex
Hi Alex,
Sorry, I don’t know where I found this site: however, it would have been a government site.
“However, they also, have another law, which is: while tourists are staying within these areas the hotel manager by Law must take a copy of your passport, international drivers licence, and Car Number Plate, the hotel manager by Law must send copies to the local Polizia within 8 days of your stay. So that if a car Number Plate is picked up on the camera they can check against their recording of Authorized vehicles of tourists residing, even if it be a few days.”
OK, what information I have now after many weeks of emailing. An email from Avis Car Rental: I sent them a copy of the fine which we recieved for 90.85 EURO, they sent back: A copy of what the fine should look like, it was very different looking to our fine and it was in Italian not English. They advised us not to pay: The fine they recieved and paid, for was for 19 Euro, including their costs which they, paid, and deducted from our account.
They also, sent a web address to pay outstanding fines: Https://ztl.comune.fi.it/tzv/Login.jsp They told me to try it and see what happens, with the fine we received in the post. I went to this site and put in the information needed: fitting the information on the original fine. My Italian friend reading it said, that it stated: not a valid fine number.
Alex, I am concerned about this but, at this stage, I still think I should ignore, the fine.
Alex, I know you don’t want us to give out our email addresses, because of spam. However, I think if we could all communicate with each other, we will solve this problem. My email address cne25715[at]bigpondDOTnetDOTau
Thank you for your work.
Regards Rhonda.
Hi Rhonda/Alex
First of all: Thanks Alex for your great work on this blog!
Rhonda: I’m currently sharing your problem with EMO and went to the website you mentioned:
“They also, sent a web address to pay outstanding fines: Https://ztl.comune.fi.it/tzv/Login.jsp They told me to try it and see what happens, with the fine we received in the post. I went to this site and put in the information needed: fitting the information on the original fine. My Italian friend reading it said, that it stated: not a valid fine number”
I got lucky when finding the right fine number at the 1st attempt… and immediately saw a picture of my rental car (but no way to pay there). Be careful, you can only access the picture 10 times!
On your EMO letter, the right number is the very last reference mentioned, just after the bank account references. The 1st in the 2 last numbers is a mix of figures and letters: forget it.
For me,the good one looked like: xxxxxxx/xx. I just kept the 7 first numbers and then gave the licence plate number (targa in Italian).
I now know that the fine is for real now but I’m still a bit concerned: should I pay directly to EMO (their website looks like s**t)or should I wait for a more formal fine? (with a risk of paying more I guess).
I’ll eventually have to pay it according to Stephane’s post (I’m French and living in France)
Thanks
Regards
Lottie
Lottie,
Thanks for the thanks! Always nice to know that what I’ve done here – with the help of a few others (Rhonda etc)- is proving useful.
Re paying: Have you actually received a fine? I think so, but this is not all that clear from what you write. If you have got a fine, then if you do not pay within a certain time, the amount will increase.
You are not the first to be worried about the ‘not very professional’ look of the EMO site. The site owners really ought to make it look a little more convincing – but that is another story…
And thanks for the useful info re how to read these darned fines! This should be useful to someone.
Kind regards,
Alex
Alex,
I received a letter from EMO saying that I am about to receive a fine from the municial police of Florence and that I could already pay it on EMO’s website.
The municipal police advised Rhonda to wait for the official fine: “Good morning,
it’ s better waiting for formal notification of fine ( from Municipal Police of Florence ) and then you can decide for payment or appeal. Best regards.” This is why I wanted to wait.
According to the date on the letter, I have to pay before November 1st, and I’ll probably pay via EMO and see what happens.
I’ll keep you posted.
Ciao
Lottie
WE RECEIVED IN OCTOBER 2007 A TRAFFIC TICKET
THAT WE KNEW NOTHING ABOUT. IT STATES, “THE
DRIVER WAS DRIVING ALONG LANES FOR PUBLIC TRANSPORT ONLY”. I HAVE NO RECOLLECTION OF ANY SUCH THING! WHAT DEFENSE DO WE HAVE? I REALLY THINK THIS A SCAM. I CALLED THE ITALIAN CONSOLATE IN LOS ANGELES, THEY WERE OF NO HELP. THEY CLAIMED THIS WAS DONE ON MAY 16, 2007. IF ANY ONE COULD GIVE ME SOME CONSTRUCTIVE ADVICE, I WOULD APPRECIATE IT VERY MUCH.
Hi Conrad,
So you got a fine for driving in a restricted traffic lane. Well, that’s a new one on me!
Where were you when this happened? And does the fine documentation indicate that a photo was taken – so at least you can see some proof that this is not some form of scam – which it could be.
If you like I can email you about this – let me know if you want me to.
All the best,
Alex
I have just received my EMO ‘fine’ for entering the Arezzo restricted zone (like Scag and Jane April 23) on 30 March. We were frankly just plain lost trying to find our way from one side of Arezzo to the other at night and in the rain. ‘Only’ E103 fine but I’ll look out for these money earners in the future! Ciao. Mike
Salve. Should have also said that I tried paying the fine through the EMO website yesterday using the user name and password provide in the EMO letter. Didn’t work. Tride again today – this time the website wouldn’t even come up! Saluti. Mike
Hi Alex
I’ve read all the interesting correspondence on your site and I have also been targeted by the Italian police for a speeding offence of which I was totally unaware.It was in May of this year in the Provincia di Firenze area. Interestingly enough Avis, the hire car company only charged me £6 for supplying the information to the authorities. I haven’t yet decided whether to pay, but the point of my email is that the Municipal Police notice has its address as ‘Via Machiavelli’ I think this says it all!
Regards K
Hi K,
Glad you found the info useful.
As for the address, well, that did make me chuckle!!! Highly appropriate for the living museum. The late Machiavelli has a lot to answer for IMHO!
All the best,
Alex
Hello
April last year I visited Firenze with my family, and got caught 8 times on camera in the “restricted traffic zones”. I’ve waited to do anything about it untill now that I got the real fine( the one you receive after the “notification”)
I’ve talked to these people at EMO a couple of times to get advice on what to do about this.
Appealing, I will probably end up paying the double amount which will be a disaster for my family and I. So this morning I talked to somebody at the EMO who, strangely enough, told me a secret on how to avoid payment…..
I promise everyone who read this and you Alex, that when I’ve tested this method I will tell you all how it works out…
Best regards
Kasper
Hi Kasper,
Thanks for the info. We shall all wait with baited breath the hear about this secret method of avoiding having to pay these fines.
Hope it’s legalish!
And if it works, I’ll think about publishing it here – although anyone who decides to try out such method – must do so at his or her own risk.
Regards,
Alex
Hi Alex,
First of all, THANK YOU for providing a forum for people like me to vent and seek assistance and advice. Now for the nitty-gritty; I am fuming. I received two tickets in the mail this week for fines incurred in July, 2007. I drove through a ZTL twice in the same day and owe EMO nearly 200 Euros
Interestingly, our hotel was in a ZTL (I didn’t know what a ZTL was until yesterday). I am fluent in Italian (my mother’s family still lives there) and I have visited and driven all over Italy many, many times. Never seen these ZTLs before, never received tickets… I speak with a very noticable English accent and I presented my Canadian passport on arrival at the hotel so clearly, there was no mistaking that I am a tourist. When I ask where I should park my car, I would expect the hotel employee to have the common sense (and courtesy) to know that my car probably doesn’t have ‘authority’ to drive through a ZTL so she shouldn’t send me past another camera. She should also have asked for my license plate. I assume that it’s too late for the hotel to call now…7 months have passed.
I just wanted to let you know that when I got my International Drivers License, I received a book with laws and signs specific to Italy which I actually studied. The book I received from CAA (AAA equivalent in Canada) did NOT include the ZTL sign. The “Do Not Enter” is a red circle with a horizontal white line going through the middle – same as it is in North America. I have since notified CAA and AAA of my incident and of their ommission.
I am not saying that tourists should be exempted from these rules – the municipality of Firenze is free to make and enforce any rules they deem necessary. But for a city that relies heavily on tourists for income, they should have considered the fall-out this sort of gouging will have on their tourism industry. DID THEY? HOW DO I LET THEM KNOW THAT THIS IS A BLACK-EYE FOR THEM? It’s a trap really – if your hotel is in the core area of the city, there is no way to avoid these ZTL areas….pedestrian traffic, people double-parked – detours are inevitable!
Imagine had I known what that the ZTL sign meant and tried to stop my car in the middle of a busy street. That would surely upset the people behind me. Italy is not known for their patient or courtious drivers.
I am going to pay the fines as I will be back in Italy in the near future and will be renting a car again. But need some advice on who I can write to to let them know what a negative effect this is having. Any suggestions? I booked three other families for their vacations in Florence this summer. They all want to drive through the wine-country and will have their own cars. I cancelled all three reservations today because of this and am sending them to Trento instead.
Hi Katie,
Glad you found this post useful. The number of people affected by these ztl things never ceases to amaze me.
Anyway, I’ll track down a couple of names and addresses and get back to you. I’m thinking about the head of Florence’s tourist board, local council officer in charge of tourism, and, possibly, the Italian government minister in charge of tourism.
All the best,
Alex
It is good to know that I am not alone. My husband, parents, and I were traveling in Italy in April 2007. We received a total of……………………. 7 tickets! (Oh, and of course 25 Euro fines for each one from Europcar in addition to the 80-92 Euro fines from the polizia. Here is the breakdown:
5 from Florence: 1 for driving along lanes for public transportation only, 1 for circulating on roads reserved to other vehicles, and 3 for circulating in limited traffic areas (those 3 within a 10-minute period)
1 from Verona: driving through a Zone of Traffic Limited where car transit is allowed “only at certain hours of the day”
1 from Pisa: driving in limited traffic zone
The ones from Florence came in English. I called the police, and a woman told me that three of my fines could be removed if my hotel sent proof of my stay. After three rather difficult conversations with limited-English-speaking (but very friendly) ladies at the hotel, I faxed a letter and the copies of the tickets (add $25 + international phone calls…I haven’t received the bill yet!). My hotel tried to get the fines waived, but apparently was 100 meters outside of the restricted traffic zone! The hotel did send me forms about how to appeal the tickets, but, after careful reading, I realized that I would have to pay DOUBLE the fine if my appeals were rejected. I logged onto EMO website, paid the five tickets, have receipts, and feel relieved that at least those are done (although VERY poor!).
The ones from Verona and Pisa are trickier, as they are in Italian. I sent e-mails to both municipalities requesting more information. Verona sent me instructions in English, but I feel unsure as to how they will know that it is our ticket that has been paid…any answers?
Pisa has not responded to my e-mail. Their notification letter is very hard to understand. I gave it to a woman who speaks some Italian, and she could not figure out the instructions for payment. I also took it to the bank with no success.
Anyway, I do think that Italy should be aware that this is NOT good for tourism. I’m not the gambling type, so I am trying to pay the fines…however, I now have NO desire to visit Italy again. I certainly will never drive there again. It’s too bad, really…I loved it when I was there.
That being said, Italian drivers are AWFUL(in my opinion). Most of the time on the roads I was afraid for my life, and I considered it a miracle that we didn’t have an accident while in Italy. We were probably some of the safest drivers on the road, even if we did drive in limited traffic zones! Not to mention how confusing it was to get around Italy or find anything! Whose eyes can be peeled for ZTL signs when you are fearing for your life while trying to find a hotel at night?
I am trying my luck in Ireland this spring. Does anyone know of any similar problems in Ireland?
Sorry for the long post…it feels SOOOOO good to get this off of my chest (even if my wallet is empty).
Hi Becky,
Thanks for the long post! I’m very sorry to hear that you got 7 fines, unbelievable.
And I’m sorry to hear that you will not be coming back to Italy, although I quite understand why.
I’ll try to post a longer reply tomorrow or Monday and how you can make sure that the Verona and Pisa municipalities know that it was you who paid the fines.
All the best,
Alex
Becky,
Re the Verona and Pisa fines.
On the fine notification there should be the word ‘Casuale’, which is a sort of traffic offence reference number, and this reference is usually written on the fine, and it provides information with regard to the date that you were caught, the registration of the car you were in. If you quote this reference code whenever you contact the authorities then they will know what you are referring to. In addition, when you do pay the fines, ensure that the ‘Casuale’ information is included. You may, for example, be able to transfer money from your bank account, in which case there should be a section allowing you to specify why the transfer is being made. In this case write ‘Pagamento di multa Casuale: (Write the reference numnber and the car registration number)’ and you should be OK.
Hope that helps,
Alex
Hi Alex,
Thanks for your help. My husband went to the bank this week to pay the Verona fine (we can’t translate the Pisa one…), and they wanted to charge him $48 just to wire the money. Do you know if they accept bank checks or credit card payments? This is all starting to get ridiculous!
Just received four fines from EMO for driving in a ZTL in Florence last August, all on the same day. We were staying in the heart of the City – how can we check whether our apartment was in the ZTL?
And having read almost the whole of this blog (mind-boggling) I’m still unclear whether anyone has suffered any serious consequences from not paying?
As it is, we don’t plan to go back to Italy. They asked us not to anyway! We were travelling with my wife’s sister and Mum, who carry Indian passports, and when they applied for vias in London we were given 24 hours to produce 1200 Euros in travellers cheques, a copy of my brother-in-law’s passport (he was in India at the time) and a letter from my niece’s school confirming she was a pupil (in August!). Whe we expressed consternation, they told us to visit another country if we weren’t happy. If only we’d taken their advice!
@Becky
Glad to have been of some help.
If you want some help translating the Pisa fine – drop me a mail through the contact system.
As for accepting checks – probably, but sending a check though the post is not reliable. You could try it though. Checks cost less to process than bank transfers, well, they do if they come from the UK, but they can take something like 2 weeks or so to clear – UK bank checks, that is.
A credit card payment seems to be possible re the Florence fine, go here:
http://www.servizi.infogroup.it/multeWeb/Welcome?comune=D612
I got to this link via this site:
http://centroservizi.lineacomune.it/portal/page/portal/MULTIPORTALE/FIRENZE/PAGAMENTI
which looks legitimate.
@Paul,
Try this .pdf map of Florence’s ZTL:
http://www.comune.firenze.it/servizi_pubblici/ambiente/parchi/cartine/ciclo/cartacicl_retro.PDF
As to whether anyone has suffered any serious consequences for non-payment, the answer is I don’t know.
And sorry to hear about your visa hell, but that is Italy for you, either things like this are silky smooth or you hit a bureaucratic brick wall, as, alas, you did.
Sorry to hear you are not coming back, but this is understandable in view of your experience.
Post here if you need more help, and I do my best.
Best regards to both of you,
Alex
BEAUTIFUL COUNTRY AND BEAUTIFUL PEOPLE BUT I FEEL SOILED BY THESE “HIDDEN” NO DRIVE ZONES WITH THEIR OVER ZEALOUS FINES…SO I DO NOT INTEND TO GET DIRTY AGAIN ANY TIME SOON !
Well, add us to the list of the “circulating in restriced traffic zone without authorisation” club. We received a registered letter from the Municipality of Pisa in very interesting English on Feb. 12, 2008 for an infraction on October 8, 2006!!! The fine is 111 Euros, etc. etc. The time of the violation is before we picked up our car, but no longer have any of the “proof” of our arrival. Who keeps that stuff for well over a year. I’m sure this happened when the rental car co. was bringing our car. Thusfar, we have not recieved any charges from our rental car co.(National) We have driven in Italy several times before without problems.
I also tried to see the picture on the web (https://secure.comune.pisa.it/tzv/Login.jsp), but it says that it is not a valid number. The notice we received was dated Nov. 11th and not mailed until Jan 30th.
Any suggestions??
Nancy – the only suggestion I would have would be to contact the hire company and tell them that the time recorded on the fine was before you picked up the car.
At the same time I would write to the Pisa authorities stating that you were not driving the car at the time of the offence and supply them with the name and address of the hire company, as you are obliged to do under Italian law.
Basically if you lend your car to a friend and this friend commits an offence, the fine will come to you, but within a certain time – the limits are mentioned in the main post above – you are obliged to supply the name of the driver at the time the offence took place.
Again, for more info on time limits, look at the main post above – you’ll find everything you need to know – but remember I’m not an expert on this subject.
If you have any further problems post here or use the contact system to get in touch with me, and I’ll see if I can help.
All the best,
Alex
Hello again…
I promised to get back to you on how to avoid paying these fines.
As I mentioned, after getting 8 horrible letters from EMO, I called these bloodsucking people to try to make them realize that I did something wrong without knowing it, and that if no one is there to tell you so, you will keep on doing wrong untill you get the ticket 6-8 months later… (what a beutifull way to make lots of money). And if you try to appeal you will end up doubling the fine, because clearly everybody who got the ticket is guilty!
Well… I talked to a woman who told me the following: ” I can see your problem sir, but I don’t know what to tell you… OK listen…. Do you have a friend or relative who is disabled?”
“No!”(my answer)
“Ok… write a letter in which you tell us that your disabled friend was in the car with you at that time… that you wanted to see the city and you drive around the center of the city to see the churches and stuff… the police will never charge you and they never check these formalities.
Then get your friend to make a small statement in which he says that he was in the car, bla bla….. If he has a hadicap-parking sign I will also need a picture of that.”
After hanging up I was stunned… But when you think about it, the pictures of the car is taken from behind, so they can’t see who’s in the car. And imagine having to find a person among the millions of tourists entering Italy every year. Deffently not something the Italian Police would spend a lot of time doing.
Well, after thinking about it I decided to pay the fines. I have no disabled friend, and I am sure as hell not going to ask someone who knows someone….
So now I have paid the 8 fines, and I’ve become poorer. But when I think of it all: the letters from EMO written in hieroglyphic nonsense, the mystic woman on the telephone and the relieving fact that if I were only a tiny bit more scroupeless I could have avoided paying and cheated this unfair setup, it has been an extension of our Typical Italian experience. ( in a good way)
As I have not tried this, I don’t know if it works for sure and it’s a risk to take. Im sure that if exposed this scam would have some costs.
If everybody says that they had their disabled friend in the car, I’m sure the Italian police will be a little suspicious.
In the other hand I think it’s such a lousy way of pulling out some extras from the tourists and foreigners, that no one should have bad feelings about bending the rules a little to avoid paying.
Kasper
Kasper – many thanks for getting back to us.
Your solution is a 100% Italian way of getting round the problem. Most probably a tried and trusted method.
That you did not try it out shows that you are not Italian! Most Italians would not think twice about using this excuse, and other, even more devious, solutions.
I shall leave your post here for those out there who do have disabilities or travel with disabled people in Italy.
Kind regards,
Alex
Has anyone ever been able to view photos from Pisa violations? How did you do it? If you can’t access the photos online, how can you get them in time to avoid additional penalties.
Where are those folks who were going to get back here after not paying?
I just got 4 from July 2006. Neither my wife nor I ever saw any signs. But we did see signs and photo equipment in Sienna and Firenza.
Now I am wondering if there is more I don’t know about.
Buon Giorno! Okay that’s the only Italian I know
Anyways, I just spent my lunch hour reading this post and it has alot of helpful stuff here. I am desperate because my rental car company notified me that I received 2 traffic violations (aka verbali) in the district of Florence and Pisa. My dilemma is the rental car company sent the Italian authorities an old address that I am not longer at, so I did not even receive the violations at all (my post office confirmed they sent them back to Italy). Anyways, I have been all over the place trying to find someone to get those tickets mailed to the right address to prevent fines and penalties. I emailed both districts with the email addresses i was given, called the US embassy in Florence, and my rental car company wont’ help me. Do you have any clues as to what else I can do? I seem to be spinning my wheels…Thanks so much 
My wife and I were discussing this last night. The citations which I received yesterday were from 13 July 2006. That means at this time they are approximately 575 days from the date of infraction.
From what I see here, and also at this link,
http://my.lifeinitaly.com/showthread.php?t=1921&page=2 it appears that they are too late to have jurisdiction. Look for the post from Arturo near the bottom.
Hey Alex, what is your opinion on this? Can you confirm any information from the link? It seems that there may be new legislation.
I have not yet received any charges from Europcar. However, I have replaced the credit cards (and acquired new #’s) on this account since that date. So the charge may just be delayed.
It also appears that finding out when Pisa contacted Europcar would be a significant little bit of info. Not just when they replied.
@Liza
What a situation! I think that you have already done all that is reasonably possible, and, seeing as you have already emailed your correct address to the Pisa and Florence authorities, I think I would just sit tight. It is now up to the places which issued the fines to send them to the correct address, within the time limits mentioned way above in the post which started all these comments off!
And if the car rental company has charged you some admin fee, I think I would ask them to return it. Officially, you have not received the fines – but you would need a lawyer to confirm this.
So, sit tight and wait until they send the fines to the right address, and if they don’t arrive within the time limits, in your shoes, I would be tempted to ignore them as being invalid. But remember, I am not an expert!
@Rusty,
I had a look at the post, and if it is true, and knowing Italy, it probably is, then probably means everyone can just sit on these fines until the time limit is up. What I’m not sure is when the time limit runs from: the date of the offence or the date of notification of the offence.
Either way, I think the only possible risk would be that you might, although I doubt it, be collared by the Italian police if you come back to Italy and stay in the same area as you committed the offence, or if you used the same rental company.
For most people, paying the rental company admin charges may well be the end of the story. Although, if the reciprocal agreement that appears to have been/is being introduced within the European Union, then European residents may find that their own local motoring authorities may try to collect the fines and will use local powers to achieve this. Those from outside Europe probably do not have to worry. But, please remember that I am no expert on this, and any suggestions I may make are just that suggestions.
As ever, I strongly recommend contacting motoring associations for conclusive advice on this issue.
Please let us know how you get on, or how you sort this issue out.
All the best to both of you,
Alex
Thank you Alex for your quick reply. I agree with you in that I have done all I can do. Maybe you can put this one worry I have to rest. Can the rental car company or the Italian authorities still charge my credit card? That is what the rental car company did, they just charged my credit card and didn’t even notify me. I had to go through all this just to find this out! I have considered canceling my credit card for that reason. Please advise. Thanks for your help!!
Forgot to mention – the rental car company charged my credit card for the admin fee for both tickets. Sorry about leaving that out…
Hi Liza,
In reply to your question: I don’t really know the answer, but I suspect that if you read the small print on the car rental agreement you will find that they can charge your credit card for offences that occurred while the car was in your possession.
However, they should only be able to do this if the fines are still valid – if they are not valid, then you have not, technically IMHO, committed any offence, in which case there is nothing they should be charging you for.
In the above case the fine does not exist, so making you pay would be a bit like asking you to pay for one extra day of car rental when you did not rent the car for an extra day.
However, having stated the above, we are now moving into the realms of contract law, and to be sure you need to know the terms of the contract – and it’s effects under Italian law. I don’t know how, but you would need to take legal advice on this.
Please remember that all of my comments, and ‘advice’ are informal, and need to be confirmed with someone who is a qualified expert. I don’t want you to get yourself in trouble for taking my ‘advice’, and I don’t want to get myself in hot water for offering advice when I am not qualified to do so.
Anyway, after the caveat, I hope you manage to sort this out. I guess you could start by writing to the hire company and asking them to refund the credit card charges, and see how they respond.
Kind regards,
Alex
Thanks Alex.
After a final check with the CA Automobile Assoc., I think I’ll send them a dispute with a double defense. Both the time limit, and a handicapped plaque.
If we go back to Italy, we plan only to visit the Riviera, Milan, and the Amalfi Coast (of course the wife will insist on Venice again). Pisa was nice, but there is so much more to Italy (and from everything I have found on the web, it appears that the authorities in Pisa are abusing this situation).
I’ll try to get back to you with any updates. Your Blog has been the best information on this subject anywhere on the web. MOLTE GRAZIE!
Rusty
Update:
I called CA AAA and they said they don’t know anything. They referred me to the local Italian Consulate.
That was a big waste of time. I specifically asked “What is the Italian law regarding the time frame for a municipality to send notice on a photo traffic violation.” The first guy I talked to said only, “If you do not pay it, maybe next time you go to Italy they will lock you up.” (not an answer to my question) I asked if they had anyone there who knew “the law.” He transfered me to a woman who would only say, “If they sent you the notice, then you have to pay.” (again, not an answer to my question) It was clear from the conversation that she did not know the law because she just kept parroting the same line.
I then went online and emailed the US Consulate in Milan (and some others localities). They sent me back this link.
http://www.patente.it/codice/201.htm
It appears that they needed to reach me in 360 days. It was 375.
I’m still going to use the double defense. I’ll let you know if anything more comes of it.
Rusty
Hi Rusty,
Thanks for the update.
But sorry to hear about the fairly standard reactions, which do not really make anyone’s life easier.
By all means have a go at using the defence and do please let me know if anything comes of it.
Many thanks once again for having taken the time to have posted about your investigations back here.
And, yet again, thanks for the molte grazie – good to hear that this post is helping some people in some small way.
All the very best,
Alex
I got one of the Pisa fines back in June 2006, and got a second notice recently.
Anyways, I contacted the Gardaí (im in Ireland), and they told me that in these type of cases, the rental company should be paying the fine to the Municipal Police directly.
It is then upto the rental company to claim the charge back of the renter, as it is in the lease contract signed in order to rent the car in the first place.
The Gardai have told me to bin the notices, and that they suspect it is some elaborate scam invloving some municipal police administrators.
If Italians were to commit a driving offence in a rented car over here (Ireland), the Gardai would fine the rental company, as they own the car. Its upto the rental company to chase the renter for the reimbursement apparently.
Also the fact that these “fines” can only be paid via Bank transfer stinks of a scam. The money is probably being pocketed by these scammers.
Feck em I say
Hi Dave,
Thanks for the comment.
“Anyways, I contacted the Gardaí (im in Ireland), and they told me that in these type of cases, the rental company should be paying the fine to the Municipal Police directly.”
In answer to the above, I dug out my Eurpocar rental agreement from August 2007 to check this out, and in the General Conditions number 3, it says: The client undertakes:
c) to directly arrange to pay any fines raised against the hired vehicle during the period of the rental and to refund the Lessor any costs incurred in this respect, in addition to any payments made by the Lessor and the administrative charges quantified in the information sheets available at rental offices.
OK, this is only Europcar, but I suspect that other companies have similar conditions – note the ‘directly arrange to pay any fines’ wording.
The Gardai may be right, but how well do they know Italian law?
As for the fact that these fines can only be paid by bank transfer, I’m not sure that this indicates a scam, although it would be interesting to see an auditors report on this ‘income’ and see whereabouts it ends up.
If you do believe this is a scam, then why don’t you bring charges against them for fraud? As long as, of course, you can prove that you did not commit the offence they accused you of. Or you could take this up with the rental company and see how they react. I believe that many rental companies can and do track cars and so they may be able to confirm or deny that you were in the location when the alleged offence was committed.
While I can sympathise with your frustration, and that of everyone else here, until someone manages to prove that these fines are a scam, then they should, technically, be paid.
As I have mentioned before, a Euro MP needs to look into this and at the very least request audited accounts from the local authorities concerned.
And remember, I’m not an expert on this, and although I have quoted directly from a car rental agreement, its conditions may have changed.
If you do decide to bin the fines, then let us know what, if anything, happens next.
Kind regards,
Alex
Hi Alex – just discovered this blog and find it very helpful. I received a fine of 111,00 Euro for “Circulating in restricted traffic Zone” in Pisa. My offense date was June 4, 2007 and the notice arrived at my house on Feb. 16th, 2008 which my wife signed for.
I am within the 365 days so feel I should go ahead and pay the fine, what I am not seeming to find, is helpful information as to how to pay this fine.
I tried to e-mail the contact listed on my offense which is lucia.bigongiali@sepi-pisa.it however my e-mail keeps getting returned as undeliverable so that is no help. (Also makes me feel a bit suspicious).
I see that you found a way to pay fines from Florence on a Web-Site, has anyone found a web site for Pisa where fines can be paid? If not I am concerned about transferring money to the IBAN number listed, how would I ever know that they have received payment and that I am off the hook?
Thanks so much for your help!
Hi John,
Glad you find my little site helpful. Sorry to hear that you have joined the ‘I’ve been fined in Pisa club’.
As for paying the thing, aside from the bank transfer, I can’t seem to find any other method.
What I suggest you do is ring this number: 050 220561 – which is from the SEPi fine collection agency which works on behalf of Pisa, and see if you can confirm the bank details from them.
If I remember well, some way above in the other comments, someone mentions how to check out an IBAN code, so at least you should be able to ensure that it ends up in an official account. And, if you do go down the bank transfer route, remember to write the ‘causale’ reference number somewhere on the bank transfer, along with the date of the offence and the registration number of the car you were in.
Sorry I can’t be of much more help.
All the best,
Alex
Just received an EMO ‘notice of payment before notification’ for a speeding offence in Italy. Should I wait for the official notice and risk additional charges or pay via the dodgy looking EMO website?
Many thanks,
Bill
Hey it’s me again…I just wanted to let you know I did call my rental car broker to see if they got any response from the rental car company about correcting my wrong address so I can get the copies of the tickets mailed to me. The customer rep told me that he has had received 80 calls just this week from people all receiving traffic violations in Italy. He addressed my concern with if my credit card could get billed for the fines and he said that in my contract the Italian authorities nor the Rental car company have the right to do that, the rental car company is only allowed to bill for the admin charges. I double checked my contract and validated that is correct. So in the long run, he explained to me that in other countries like France, if you get pulled over for a minor traffic violation, they will NOT ticket you because they do not want their tourism to get negatively affected. There is really no penalty tourists could get if we didn’t pay, other then added to some sort of list should we ever choose to drive again when we vacation to Italy. Just food for thought…
@Bill
As long as you can find an offence number (causale) somewhere on the documentation you have received, you could attempt to pay the fine via the EMO site.
What you could do, I suppose, is wait for the official notification and then pay the sum mentioned in the first notice – the time limits should run from the issuing of the ‘real’ notice, not the notification of notice!
But, please check this out.
As for the look of the EMO site, they really need to do something about that as many feel that the site is not much more than a front for some scam or other, even if this does not appear to be the case as EMO does appear to be legitimate.
Let us know who you get on.
Thanks for writing,
Alex
@Liz
Thanks for your food for thought!
“There is really no penalty tourists could get if we didn’t pay, other then added to some sort of list should we ever choose to drive again when we vacation to Italy.”
I’d love to know if such a list actually exists. Personally, I doubt it, but if someone would care to prove me wrong, I would not complain.
All the best,
Alex
Alex,
Many thanks for your thoughts. I have now paid via the EMO site. Having entered my details thay appeared to have all the official documentation relating to the speeding incident including a photo of me driving the hire car – couldn’t even blame the wife!
My only real gripe is that its taken them 6 months to fine me.
No doubt my credit card will take a hit from the hire car company for the admin shortly.
Regards,
Bill
Bill,
You are welcome. I have to admit that the existence of a photo reduces the possibility of this being a scam. If it is, it is highly sophisticated! But them webcams have become rather good nowadays! Adds he, mischievously.
As for the time that it takes for this fines to find you, well, that is Italy for you. Things do not move all that quickly here and sorting out these fines will not be a popular task for some minion or other, I bet.
All the best,
Alex
PISA two offences within two minutes of each for being in a (Zone Reglementee) total 222Euro.
We use a Garmin GPS everywhere with no problems ( Except ******Piza!!)
18 months for the fines to come, which were handed to us in the local French Gendarme station, where we had to file a report etc.
These areas are clearly badly marked, making this mistake for the first time in 30 years of driving and then at about 20 MPH whilst looking to park.
Clearly Piza does not want tourists!
I have been notified by letter from Dollar Rental that they debited a fine of 50 Euros from my debit card. A copy of the tranaction is in Italian and I’ve appealed it to no avail. Then – behold! Two registered letters from Pisa which my mail service accepted. 111 Euros each. Same compaint as everyone else.
Wells Fargo says to wire the money cost $49 each plus the fines which are about $175 each. And going up daily. I’ve cancelled the card and won’t be paying these fines.
These people seem like terrorists to me. Anybody hear of weapons of mass destruction in Pisa? We Yanks only need the suspicion, nowadays……
OK, humor aside, I hope they hold their breath til I pay them. Thanks for letting me know I’m not alone.
RE:FEB 11TH…I PAID THE “OVER ZEALOUS” FINE THAT ANNOYED ME SO MUCH AND GUESS WHAT ?…I GOT ANOTHER FOR THE NEXT DAY…NOW I’M REALLY ANNOYED !?
I am handicapped and have a blue handicapped tag. How do I get a pass to drive in those special no drive zones in
Florence and Rome?
Would appreciate any information.
Hi Carol,
I don’t know much about this, but I’ve had a dig around on the internet and come up with some information.
If you are Italian and your handicap is registered, then you can apply to the local commune (council) or Polizia Municipale (Municipal Police – not the Carabinieri or Poliza) for an pass which will allow you to park in the assigned spaces, pedestrianised areas and the zone di traffico limitato (restricted traffic areas).
The badge is valid for 5 years throughout Italy, but to obtain it you would need a certification from the Italian ASL health authority and to have made an application to the mayor. If you are not Italian, nor officially resident in Italy or only here for a short time (on holiday, business etc), then going through the application procedure is probably too time consuming.
What you don’t say is where you are from. If you are from within the European Community, then the blue tag may be recognised, but I’m not sure.
Are you planning on bringing your own car? Or would you hire a car here?
Generally, it appears as though hotels within the restricted traffic zones, if asked, will inform the local police about hire cars. In this case, a fine will not be issued apparently. However, if you drive into a restricted traffic zone you may well get fine, and the only thing you can do is appeal on the grounds that you have a registered handicap, but making the appeal will not be easy and you may well have to pay a car rental company admin charge, so it’s best to avoid the situation.
Let me know where you are from so I can have another hunt around to see if I can find anything useful.
All the best,
Alex
Hi, I am Hungarian, and I got three letters today from an Italian car rental company, with three times 70 EUR fine+3×50 EUR (!!) handling file expenses+VAT+postal taxes. I rented the car in Milan last year, September, and from the attached police letter I see, that all the tree incidents happened on 30th September, 9:10, 9:12 and 9:14 in the Zona a traffico limitato en Milan! The car rental company already tried to debit my banc account with 3 times 141 EUR, at that time I did not know what a hell it is, so I told my bank to cancel my card, and asked a new card. They told me they would investigate if these amount should be accepted or not, so it is a pending, restricted sum on my bank account. From the received letters I can see, that the car rental company already payed the fines. I don’t know what should I do, because I cannot imagine it is justified to fine somebody three times within 6 minutes!!!!
Furthermore it is very bad that the car rental company sent me three separate letter, and 3 times 50 EUR handling expenses!!!
What can I do? Will my bank let the debited sum to be payed to the car rental company? I amvery angry, because we rented the car with three colleagues, and it was a Saturday or Sunday morning, and we could not find our way out of Milan, and we happened to go through this damned zone, but this was not on purpose. (The whole car rental was 120 USD!!)
Imagine when I tell my colleagues that they each has to pay more than 100 EUR half year after the rental!!!
Any suggestion?!!!
I posted some comments back in Sept 07 after receiving a fine from Pisa (almost a year after the supposed speeding incident) – I have heard nothing since from the authorities (having not paid).
A colleague at work has just received notification of a fine from Naples (for not paying a Toll), again after some considerable delay. Quite how you bypass a toll without noticing, seems difficult. Unfortunately for him, the amount was charged to his credit card via the hire car company.
My best guess of what is going on, is a scam involving collusion between the police & hire companies. By ensuring that they only target foreign hirers, they avoid the inevitable flack that would ensue if they nicked locals in the scam.
Many posting on this blogg have stated that the experience (of being scammed) has put them off ever visiting Italy again.
I would offer the following advice to anyone (except Italian nationals) hiring a car in Italy:- ensure that the credit card used to pay/guarantee the hire car, expires or is cancelled within one month from the date of hire. That way, the car hire company cannot take any money (without your permission).
If I ever return to Italy (which I would not rule out), I will certainly take this step to protect my money.
Mike,
Do please write to your Euro MP about this. We need some investigative journalist to look into this.
As to your idea re credit cards, not bad. Let’s see if someone gives it a go.
All the best,
Alex
I received a fine ticket. I would like to pay but the username VO28AC1921 and Password are not valid in your system. Please let me know how to pay and proceed. My wife and me arrived late in Siracusa, we were starving and looking for a place to eat in Ortiga. I do not recall to break the law at any moment. Anyway I am willing to stop this fine.
Yours sincerely,
Federico Sanchez
I recently too received notice of a violation in Florence. The letter from the EMO stated: THE DRIVER WAS DRIVING ALONG LANES FOR PUBLIC TRANSPORT ONLY
Firstly, I’m not exactly sure what that means…but after reading through these posts, I’m somewhat at ease that I’m one of many to get something like this.
My problem is that I can’t find any evidence on the EMO website – http://www.emo.nivi.it or the other website suggested in other posts for Florence – https://ztl.comune.fi.it/tzv/Login.jsp of my violation. I would never agree to pay a fine unless they have some photographic evidence from a camera or a police report that I violated a law.
I can log into the EMO website just fine, but there are no attached documents showing an official violation. The other site does not recognize the “Numero verbale” which I was assuming were the numbers in the EMO protocol code – Pxxx/ALxxxx (7 in total).
In the Trip Advisor thread – http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g187895-i68-k1475356-o100-Traffic_ticket_scams-Florence_Tuscany.html
Someone suggests to mail the Prefetto. This thread suggests that I should contact the Polizia Municipale via registered mail…should I try to contact both? (not really sure what the Prefetto is).
I wasn’t going to pay the fine until I get more of an official notice so if anyone has any suggestions, I’m open to hearing them. Else, I’m going to mail off the letters and see what happens.
“I received a fine ticket. I would like to pay but the username VO28AC1921 and Password are not valid in your system.”
I hope you have not tried to pay the fine on this site!
If you are having password problems, I suppose you could try writing and asking for another one.
Are you sure you have the right fine payment website?
All the best,
Alex
Woo hoo! I, too, have joined the “Vehicle circulated in limited traffic area without authorization” club. Only this one is in Florence (Firenze), I think – PZA Vittorio Veneto-LNO Amerigo Vespucci. Anyway, this is enough to make one’s blood boil. Notification six months after the supposed infraction!
I think what should happen is we refuse to pay and put the pressure on the car rental agencies to come up with the money for any fines. And deny any charges to credit cards if they (the rental agency) tries to assess against us. It might send a signal to them loud and clear to inform their customers of problem areas/thinks to look out for and for them to put pressure on the local authorities to ease up on tourists. I swear.
Of course, this is my civil disobedience coming out. I, too, don’t condone non-payment of fines when they are “just”.
As to my fine, I’m not certain what I’m going to do, yet. I’m wondering if I’m going to see some more of these for driving in areas I didn’t know I was supposed to avoid. And I’m sure I’ll be seeing something from my credit card company for some bogus admin charge.
Thanks, Alex and others, for all the good information and discussions.
april 25 I recieved a ticket in the mail from a trip in oct 07 .circulated in limited traffic area I went to emo there was a picture of rentel cr lic. two days later i recieved another ticket 1 hr after the first this happend in florence should i pay what happen if i do not? roscoe
Hello, i have just received a notice from EMO informing me that I Violated the highway code. This was almost ove a year aog so they have sent it just in time. I rang to pay the fine and was told to do it via BACS (in which I would incur a further charge of 20 EUR!) or do it via the website. I am unable to do it via the website as Im haveing trouble finding it!!! when I type the address, it brings up pages such as yours. Can you help me???
Kind regards.
Kate.
First, my apologies for having neglected this discussion.
Now, Roscoe, if you are still following this, you will find that the consequences of not paying have come up a few times above. In summary, it is not all that clear what, if anything will happen if you don’t bother paying up, although the fine will increase – that is certain.
Theoretically, those resident in Europe may have their own motoring authorities hounding them for payment, but I don’t know if this has happened yet.
Kate,
This link will take you to the EMO website:
http://www.emo.nivi.it/Default.aspx
I have to admit though that the site looks as though it has been designed by a 10 year old, and handing over money to such a site may well leave you wondering if you have just added a few beans to someone’s Porsche fund…
The company behind the EMO site is Nivi Credit:
http://www.nivi.it/index.php?s=index
It does appear to be legitimate, but anyone can build a web site.
If the fine notification did not come by registered letter – throw it away.
Regards to both – and sorry for the delay,
Alex
PS When is someone going to investigate this matter??
Alex,
A few days ago I received 3 letters in the mail stating that I was in violation of the Highway Code. It further stated that “The vehicle circulated in limited traffic area without autorization,” in Florence. Before leaving on our trip I studied up on the road signs, even printed out a copy to carry with us, as well as numerous websites and travel books. We followed Frommer’s maps, as well as a CA AAA and maps purchased in Italy. None of the above stated mentioned any sort of zone or violation. It is funny because I have to rely on maps for my line of work and I know that any sort of legitimate violation would be clearly stated, on maps and road signs. By the way, Italy was beautiful, but the drivers are a bit crazy, the roads are not clearly marked, and I don’t remember seeing those signs. So, until I receive proper notification from the issuing authorities, I’m not going to pay them. I would rather directly donate my fines to one of the museums, rather than an outsourcing company collecting for Polizia Municipale. I know there are very absurd laws in CA, but this is a joke, that clearly targets “blindly-led toursits”. So, I guess I will have to wait 5 or so years to go back to Italy, but who says I will. There are a lot of other places in the world that would welcome me and not rape me on the way out.
Just received two 91.80 Euro tickets for driving on restricted streets in Florence in May of 2007 while trying to find my hotel. In view of the number of such incidents reported on this site alone, there must be thousands of these notices going out every year. With the importance of the tourist industry to Italy, there may be a backlash against this if enough people protest.
Here’s an even interesting one:
We arrived in Pisa on 19 of December 2007, and relatives waited for us at the airport.
Because we had a lot of luggage, we rented a car in the airport from Thrifty and drove to Vaglia (via Firenze), where our relatives live in two cars. My relatives drove in their car and we with the rental behind.
Yesterday, after 6 months, we got two tickets (10 minutes apart) in Firenze for those stupid restricted traffic areas. The interesting part is that our relatives didn’t receive any tickets!!! And they don’t live in that area (they actually live in Vaglia).
That tells me the nazi pigs that made these rules have preferential treatment for tourists. What idiots! They really don’t understand that they practically take away food from the mouth of their citizens by treating tourists like that.
To the opposite, couple of years ago we were in Canada and got caught over the speed limit right before entering Ottawa. The cop didn’t give me a ticket because I was a tourist and instead he told me: “Welcome to Ottawa!”.
I just paid about $450 in fines and fees and I will make sure I don’t ever set foot in Italy or buy italian products. Beside the remains of old civilizations, today’s Italy stinks anyway …
I foresee at some point a class action suit against this country … I will save my tickets for that …
I guess i just joined the club. i visited Italy in the beginning of April for a few days, had a nice time and no tickets. well yesterday i received a letter in the ail from avis stating that i got a traffic fine and that they have charged my credit card with the administrative fees,sent my information to the authorities and also sent me a copy of the fine which is in Italian and for the life of me don’t know what it’s for but it’s 148 + 10 euro and it’s from comune nibinonno. I don’t know what to do, don’t know if it’s legitimate or what. what will happen if i don’t pay it?
Just an update on my earlier posts on this site:-
Received notification of a motoring fine in September 2007, for an offence in October 2006 (in Pisa).
I did not respond to the notice, it is now August 2008, I have heard nothing more – I guess the scammers know that they are not going to get any money out of me and have given up.
Man, this is outrageous.
This page goes on forever.
I live in Belgium, went to Pisa last year in August. Yesterday two letters from within 15 minutes from eachother came for this well known restricted trafiic zone scam.
Really, that’s what it is. There are signs enough in the european traffic rules.
And I was scrutenizing the signs all the time that day, since I was accidentally ‘pushed’ into the city by the chaotic traffic behind me, and trying to find a way out of there.
And their roadsigns are far from clear.
226 euro’s for just entering by accident.
They don’t get a cent from me. Even if they have to drag me to jail for it!
Someone really has got to inform some authorities about this. Appearantly, it’s going on for a long while now, and it’s clear that they’re making a profit. I say, nobody pays in this specific situation.
Who the hell do they think they are.
This page goes on forever, and seriously, isn’t it time we bundle all! international issues of this kind and do somethign about it?
Kurt,
What can I say? People come to Italy for a nice relaxing holiday and to see the sights – and come away with a fine. This leaves them feeling cheated, and will put people off coming to Italy, at least by car – which, seeing as Italy is not exactly the cheapest holiday destination, is not a great idea.
These horrible limited traffic zones are more aimed at local traffic than tourists. Foreign motorists, and hire car drivers should be excluded automatically. However the sad fact is that foreign motorists are much more likely to pay these fines than Italians.
It’s not right, I know. Get your local Euro MPs on to this. Heck, they are paid enough, so get them to do something useful for a change.
As for not paying – please let us know what happens.
All the best, and thanks for commenting,
Alex
Hi all,
I was fined for driving (Aug 07)in a restricted zone in florence, paid this via the website wich did have a photo of me driving through a signed area, silly me, no idea at the time what the signs were!
Just recived another for Pisa, I do not recall driving into a restricted area here and am know worried of being the subject of a ‘scam’ after reading all the issues on this page. plus im sure the florence ticket was for far less than the 111 euros this one is for.
Ps, does it count if they spell GREAT BRITAIN, as grait britain on the bottom of the form.
Phil
Hi,
Just received 2 fines one at 15:33 and another at 15:37 both for 118 Euros!
We were in Pisa at the time and drove from the city center out to the coastal motorway and did get slightly lost on the way but never went very far from the main road.
We were in Rome last July so this fine has taken 13 months to get to my partner’s Mum’s house, where he used to live years ago.
What should we do?
Just joined the happy Worldwide band of Pisa lovers! Two fines totalling 226 Euros for offences in Via Roam Pisa over 12 months ago. Not sure if anyone has got anywhere with complaining to their MEPs but might give it a go. Certainly my plans to go back to Italy in 2009 are now over so they can wave goodbye to the 1000′s of Euros that that would have cost me and benefitted them. Hope someone from the Italian authorities reads some of this stuff but probably not.
@ Phil and Leigh,
I think, and this is only a suggestion, that the best strategy, if you were not transporting registered invalids or do not have a written record of a firm booking with a city centre hotel, would be to write to the authorities in English, simply asking for confirmation that these fines are not scams. Explain that you saw no road signs and that you were passing through, and then wait for a reply. My suggestion would be to not pay up until you have received a satisfactory reply – in perfect English.
If you were carrying registered invalids or had a firm city centre hotel booking, then send evidence of this, stating that you wish to contest the fine. Always in English, or your own language. If the Italian authorities have the capability of sending out fines in languages in other than Italian, then they must also have the capability of managing all aspects of fines sent out in languages other than Italian. At least this is my opinion.
Indeed, keep sending requests in English. I suspect that replying will cost more time and money than these fines are raising. You could even mention that you have reported this matter to your Euro MP, and until he or she confirms that these fines are legitimate – poor spelling and any other errors could well be a sign that a scam operation is active – you will not pay. And when writing, demand, yes, demand, some valid form of identification from the authorities concerned, it’s up to them to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that the fines are legitimate and not scams – in Italy for most things you need to do here you must produce a passport or other valid identity document – so you should be within your rights to demand the same from them, after all, it’s only fair, and what is done here.
If the authorities are not capable of proving that these fines are legitimate, then there is no reason why they should be paid.
The Pisa, and other Italian, authorities are relying on the ignorance of foreigners. If enough people bombard them with letters requesting info in English, then they may find their strategy backfiring.
Remember,I am not a lawyer, so my opinions are suggestions, and no more – everything I state here needs to be checked out and confirmed. What you do is your decision – but I do recommend contacting motoring authorities for advice. I do not want to get you or myself into trouble.
@Lawrence – welcome to the club! And these fines seem to be on the increase, and for increasing amounts too.
Are the Italian authorities reading this? No. They just don’t know English well enough – but I’d love to be proved wrong on this!
Spread the word about these fines, as this blog post has been doing. If enough people here make a fuss, tell others to avoid Italy, and decide not to head for Italy on holiday themselves, then Italy will do something. Don’t hold your breath though – things move really slowly in the Living Museum.
Good luck to you all, and let me know how you get on,
Alex
I wrote the authorities (Polizia Municipale) in Florence a letter in English pleading my case. In my situation, there was no photographic proof that I violated a restricted zone, however they told me that an officer wrote an actual ticket. I told them that I wouldn’t pay the fine unless they could provide evidence (a copy of the ticket issued by an officer) that I violated the law.
The response I got was that the sent me another infraction in their reply! They never produced any evidence from the first infraction which they stated they had.
I have no intention of paying the first fine as they still have sent no evidence of a violation. The second fine I find even more ludicrous being that it was issued only after I tried to dispute the first charge.
Its been about 2 months and I haven’t heard anything, but that doesn’t surprise me with Italian government. My bet is that they cast very wide nets on foreigners and assume some will pay and some won’t. Also from what I understand, these notices from the EMO are not actually tickets, just notifications of a traffic violation. The theory is that if you pay off the EMO the charges would be less if you were issued an actual ticket…at least thats my personal understanding. If the EMO fine notifications were legally binding notices, they would be sent over registered mail.
That being said I’m also not a lawyer.
Hi Chris,
Did you receive the ticket? Actually being stopped by a real person probably indicates that the offence did take place.
But, if nothing was sent via registered mail, then it would be difficult for them to prove that you actually got the fine, or rather, notification of fine.
The ‘extra’ fine is what is issued in the event that a contention is considered invalid.
You are right, EMO is a collection agency. This fact in itself may make all the fines or fine notifications unlawful.
What we need here is a lawyer. Sooner or later a lawyer who has been caught out will happen upon this post and the comments, and, hopefully, let everyone know what, if anything, can be done.
It would be interesting to hear from someone, anonymously, who has not paid up, and has had nothing happen to them – especially if said person has returned to, and stayed in, the same area of Italy in which the alleged offence was committed.
As I’ve mentioned before, I have no idea as to the lengths Italian authorities will go in seeking settlement of fines.
I’m still waiting to hear of UK drivers who have been fined via the DVLA for offences taking place in Italy. There was supposed to have been some kind of link up, but I’m not sure what has come of it.
Calling all lawyers!! We need you!
Cheers,
Alex
What I meant in my earlier post was that for my first ‘offense’, I received a notification in the mail last November. I was never stopped by an officer in Florence, nor had reason to believe I committed any traffic violation. They merely told me over mail that the reason why there was no photograph of my vehicle was because an officer issued a ticket, sometime after the fact when I wasn’t present. They failed however to provide a copy of that ticket as evidence.
The additional fine was a notice of a new traffic violation (in addition to my Florence fine), in Imprunetta. They actually had an illegible photograph on the EMO website for that one. What was strange is that they included that directly in their mail response to me – doesn’t sound to me like proper protocol for issuing a new fine. I would think that one fine would be completely independent of another fine and should be dealt with separately.
Either way, at this current time I will not pay either violation. They certainly haven’t done much on their way for providing “burden of proof”.
Hello
i was just wondering, if i was on vecation in Italy and rented a car with GPS, (without any knowleg on where i can and cannot drive exept waht is the GPS showing me, the can i sue the renting company or the gps company for showing me the way throu the restricted area???
p.s. sorry for my spelling
@Chris – not sure if they can issue a ticket without giving it to you, although that’s what the speed cameras do. Push them – insist on seeing a copy of the actual ticket. Claim that you believe they are scammers, which is possible, and you will report them to Interpol or the FBI.
The reaction should be fun!
Insist on everything from them being via registered post – no email. I believe you are in the US, so this will be more expensive. Or insist on emails having real authorisation. Ask for documentary proof validated by the Italian embassy in your country that they are who they say they are.
I don’t think these things are scams – but there is a slim chance that this is the case.
@Rafi – I don’t think your idea would function. GPS devices are not officially certified, as far as I know. Read the small print. Nope, suing the rental firm would not work – they cannot decide where you drive their cars, within limits.
Rental cars do sometimes have GPS tracking systems. These can, theoretically, be used to establish where you were on a particular date and at a specific time. This could get you off.
Best of luck – but I do think reporting these things on the basis that they are scams may have so effect. I’d also like to see some evidence of just where all this fine income is ending up.
Alex
Hi Alex,
Do I detect a change of attitude over the months since you started the thread concerning Traffic Violations in Italy?
Are you becoming a tad rebellious/frustrated/outraged/bored?
Recently, my wife got her first ticket 13 months after stopping her car in a restricted area in Pisa following a call from my daughter in the car behind informing her that I had just been hit from behind by an Italian driver.
I will be taking your advice and writing to the local MEP (heaven knows who will pay attention to an MEP from N Ireland) and I will write to the local authority (in Irish maybe?) and see what happens.
I will keep you informed. Thanks for all the postings.
Peter
Hi Peter,
Yes, I think you have detected a slight change in attitude. I guess I just want to see something done.
This issue is smouldering along, and seems to be getting worse. If it is a scam, then someone is doing well out of it.
And yes, write to them in Irish, stating that if you do not hear anything back from them within 30 days, then you will consider the fine a scam and not pay it.
Try your MEP, but he or she is probably too busy attending functions and eating to bother looking into this.
Let me know what happens, and thanks for the thanks!
Cheers,
Alex
Two thoughts from California, land of the non-conforming:
1. I suggest complaining to the Italian Tourist Board. Judging by the volume of protests on this thread, we could raise panicked memories of the sightings in the North of Hannibal’s elephants. enit.it is a good starting place for the Tourist Board
2. Returning to Italy with tickets still outstanding could lead to complications. The procedure employed seemed to rely on the passport information provided by the hotel keepers, thus registering under the name of one’s innocent companion would seem prudent. A further screen might be provided by using names to register like Count Vronsky and Anna Karenina.
Hi Tony,
I thought California was riddled with nearly as many laws and regulations as Italy;-)
Joking apart. Complaining to the Italian tourist board sounds like a good idea – but Italy gets so many tourists, the board may just ignore complaints – unless the press pick up on this and start blackening Italy’s tourist reputation. I think articles in major tourist mags would be more effective.
As for point 2. Yes, this is my worry. It is possible, though knowing the level of computerisation in Italy, unlikely, that passport control, at airports – no borders for those coming by car – could flag you as being a naughty non fine payer.
As for registering in someone else’s name – no go. Italian hotels should take copies of passports off everyone staying. You would need a fake passport! And to book hire cars with fake documents too!!
The Italian authorities seem to have little problem finding addresses to send fines to – as is evidenced here.
In light of the above, I feel that bad publicity is possibly the best weapon. Get journalist friends to wade through everything here, and write articles on Italy’s latest tax or scam.
All the best,
Alex
UPDATE:
Back in March 2008, I sent my letters to the Guidici de Pace de Pisa with the double defense against the violations. My defenses were:
1. I was traveling with my handicapped mother in law and went into the “Zone” to drop her off at the Duomo, and later returned to pick her up. I sent them a copy of my Mother in Law’s Handicap Parking Placard.
2. Their notice arrived beyond the time allowed within Italian law (as proven by the registered mail receipt – see previous posts for specific info and links).
I had four citations, as I got lost returning to the Duomo, and circled around a couple of times.
I received proof of delivery for my registered letters within two weeks of sending them to the Guidici de Pace de Pisa. I have not received any reply as of this date.
At this point, I am assuming that “no news is good news” because if my defenses had failed, the fines would have doubled. One would think that they would send me an additional notice attempting to collect the additional funds. However, there is no way for me to know for sure without calling Pisa, and speaking to someone who I can not fully communicate with.
If they send me any additional, correspondence, I will let you know. For now, I would like to believe that it is a closed matter.
If you know someone who is handicapped, get a copy of their placard, and use this defense.
Good Luck!
Rusty
This problem of gaining fines inadvertantly seems very familiar. We holidayed in Italy July 2007………..had a hire car………drove into the middle of Pisa……obviously(though not purposely)drove into one of these restricted zones. We received a letter from the car hire company saying they’d given our details to the pisa authorites for which they’d charged us. (5 months later)
A few months later a notification letter was recieved to tell us we would be fined and what this space for another letter telling us how much money to send.
We’re now in September 2008, and that letter has just appeared.WE have to pay 113 euros , rising to 185.50 euros if not paid within in the 1st 60 days. After reading this blog, we are not alone. far from it!
The worrying thing is that inorder to pay the fine is going to cost us an admin fee for setting up a Swift payment.
Has anyone else paid thse type of fines using any other method?
Any advice would be useful……..
Alex, and all. Greetings! So glad I found this site as my story is an exact replica of many of the above like Christine’s. Yesterday, I had my 113 Euro fine letter but earlier in the year I had a strange deduction from the rental company (Hertz) which I queried as I assumed it was some kind of ploy to extract a bit more from me 6 months after I had given the keys back. I cancelled the card as well to stop any more of this mischief.
Anyway, I was in Pisa and I had no inkling of entering a restricted zone. I think the level of the fine is grossly disproportionate and the business of leaving it as long as possible (I was in Pisa in July/Aug ’07) seems to me a deliberate scheme hoping that you have forgotten by then but they are legal (just!). Lots of others seem to have this very long delay between the violation and the letter.
I have a picture of the car and agree with the dates so I cannot dispute the event but I am going to challenge this in some way.
Folks, please keep the ideas and experiences coming and Alex keep up the good work!
@Christine – Pisa is a pain. Credit card payments can only be made by Italians, as far as I can tell.
@Greetings to you too! Sorry to hear about, yet, another fine situation.
To both of you:
Remember that those transporting registered handicapped people can avoid having to pay.
If the notifications are not in perfect English, and I do mean perfect, then this could be grounds for accusing them of scamming you.
When writing, explain that the signs are just not clear to non-Italians.
When writing, try using some nice tough idiomatic language and mix in some slang for good measure. This will slow then down, and if you receive replies that are in bad English, fire off a letter accusing them of scamming.
Demand identification from them – ask for a photocopy of an Italian ‘carta d’indentità’ – ID card. If they refuse, then accuse them of scamming.
The more admin time they waste on these things, the less likely they will be to fine non-Italians.
Italians detest hassle, and will give up after a while – that’s how Italians get themselves off fines!
They should not put up the fine while it is being disputed. They should put the original on hold until the dispute is resolved, although this does not appear to be the case.
Accuse them of breach of privacy too. That should produce some fun responses, and you could try xenophobia, and infringement of human rights too.
Send long and complex letters, listing 20 or so points you want answers to.
The more people write, the better.
And remember folks, I am not a lawyer, any suggestions here are for fun only. I don’t encourage you to waste peoples time. Whether you do so, is up to you.
Let me know what happens,
Alex
Like Ian, above, I received yesterday the same 113 euro fine for driving in restricted zone in Pisa August 2007 (having also been charged a mysterious sum by Hertz in Feb 2008). In a response to an email sent yesterday to the address shown on the document, I am told that the restriction sign is international and common to all countries in Europe. However, there is nothing quite the same in the current British Highway Code book. Have the authorities been informed of this, and is it a possible defence?
“However, there is nothing quite the same in the current British Highway Code book. Have the authorities been informed of this, and is it a possible defence?”
Interesting, Maureen. Perhaps, if you can prove that the signs do not conform to European regulations, you could have a way out.
Would not help non-Europeans though.
Alex
As a result of Maureen’s observation re road signs, I’ve been hunting for info.
I’ve not found much to go on – these ZTL signs do not seem to exist in the UK, as Maureen stated.
The red circle is correct, but it seems rather small on the Milan versions of these signs – photo way, way above. Perhaps this is something that could be looked into, as could the height and positioning of the signs – such as distance from other signs. In Italy, there is a tendency to create small forests of road signs – not sure if this is OK by European rules. Worth checking out possibly.
Of course, all the road signs could be changed.
We need a road sign expert, or to send a European commission on a freebie to check this out.
Italy changes things slowly, and often local by-laws change before adjustments to road markings and signs are made. I know an Italian who got away without paying a fine after pointing out that changes in rules meant she could not be fined.
Some thoughts,
Alex
I too have just received the dreaded “Circulating in restricted traffic zone without authorisation” fine of 113 Euros, also done in a rented car from Hertz. Between this, Hertz’s fines for providing information to the authorities, and a ridiculously poorly advertised fine in Rome, I simply blown away by Italy’s anti-tourism character.
I have attempted to get the photographic proof of my violation (which I’m certain happened because from what I’ve seen on other websites, Pisa has done a fantastic job of making it so no one from out of town will understand they are violating the traffic laws while apparently fining people for challenging or even questioning their traffic violations), but have been having trouble. The English translation they sent does not make clear what the Numbero Verbale is. I have Nr. of form: 01116215 / 2007 Pr. 201089/2007, but I have entered every combination I can think of and no record comes up.
This is an offence from 1/8/2007 which I just received today… Italy has certainly put a sour taste in my mouth for a long time, and I’m not certain why they should care to do so.
Thank you for this blog! It’s great (and sad) to see so many people having a similar problem as me. If anyone ever does successfully challenge one of these tickets, please let me know!! Also, if anyone has not paid the fines for a long time, did Hertz charge them?
I (here in California) just received three notices of “Circulating in restricted traffic zone without authorisation” with a fine of 113 Euros each. They took place within a twenty minute time frame while I was trying to find a parking place near the Duomo. I don’t remember any signs restricting entrance and I was always with other vehicles, so assumed I was OK.
I am going to take Alex’s suggestion and write to the Provincial Governor (listed on the paper) asking for verification, etc. If anyone else has ideas of how to fight this please let me know.
“The English translation they sent does not make clear what the Numbero Verbale is. I have Nr. of form: 01116215 / 2007 Pr. 201089/2007, but I have entered every combination I can think of and no record comes up.”
Mine looked something like that too. I finally figured out it was the numbers on the left, but without the leading zero (1116215) in your case. Hope that helps.
Jacob, I too tried many combinations of numbers for the numero verbale and I finally figured it out. It requires seven digits of the Nr. of form and you drop the first 0. In your case, try 1116215. The photo shows only the license plate of the car. It does not show you going through a restricted area. I’m debating whether to pay the fine as mine was from June of 2007 and I just got the infamous notice yesterday by regular mail.
Thanks for the help. Yes, the photograph is not exactly helpful, is it? I suppose I was the driver of record for that date, so there’s not much too argue. I will warn you that from other websites (and as noted by others earlier in this blog), they do raise the fine if you challenge it and lose.
So, be careful regarding writing the provincial governor.
Virginia,
I think that looking at Alex’s earlier descriptions the one year clock starts ticking when the authorities receive your details. So that would be when presumably the hire company passed them on.
What I see a distinctly fishy is the way all these notices appear just within the legal one year limit. Why not tell you soon after they receive the info from the hire companies?
Hey Alex,
Nice website. Thank you for your information. I too, am a victim of Pisa’s surveillance camera, alledgedly driving in a “restricted traffic zone without authorization” The fine is 113 Euros! WOW!I have no clue what I did? I tried to bring up “the photo” and have NOT been succesful with that operation. Can you advise how I do that? Anyway, I am querying two of my Police friends in Italy on how to handle this summons. I will let you know their response. Anyway, I would appreciate any information on the validity of this summons and how I could best resolve the situation. Thank you, Bob Pattwell ( Ironically a retired Sergeant with NYCPD)
Wow, this is a very common problem, it seems like. I just received my 113 euro fine, again for driving in a “restricted traffic zone without authorisation.” Bob, if you find any kind of resolution, it would be much appreciated. Ethan
@Jacob,
“they do raise the fine if you challenge it and lose.” – Yes, this is not nice – done to encourage people to pay up and shut up. Sounds like human rights infringement to me.
@Ian,
“What I see as distinctly fishy is the way all these notices appear just within the legal one year limit. Why not tell you soon after they receive the info from the hire companies?”
– Yes, I agree, could be typical Italian sloth, or something else…
@Bob,
Gald you like the site!:-)
Seeing as you are a retired NYCPD policeman with police friends in Italy, you should be able to provide us all with some concrete advice. We all look forward to this, and thank you in advance.
As for not being able to bring up the photo – if you have managed to register and login, then I don’t know. If there is no photo, there is no proof – enter attempted scam.
Regarding the validity of the summons, I’m telling everyone to demand some form of identity declaration linking these authorities to Italy. If they cannot prove that they are legitimate, then why should you pay?
Again, though, I aint no lawyer. We need an international lawyer prepared to do a bit of pro bono work!
Here’s to hoping.
@Ethan,
Please read my replies for September 2008 for a few suggestions as to how you may handle this fine.
Kind regards to one and all,
Alex
I have emailed, as suggested above, to ask for proof of identity of the company collecting the fines ‘for my lawyer’ and also for photographic evidence of where the restriction notice was displayed in relation to where the photo was taken, as I, too, was travelling with other vehicles towards the Duomo having just picked up our car – maybe others could try the same? Re the time limits, their email reply states “Time and Way to send a infringement:
if you have rented a car by a rental company, we have 360 days from the date of that rental to use your personal details.( the rental company give s us a copy of your rental contract). If we respect these times the fine is legal.” My letter from them states two dates – 19/8/2008 and 29/8/2008 and we returned from Italy on 2nd Sept, so they may not actually have used my details within the 360 day period.
Hi Maureen,
It will be interesting to hear the response to your email. Beware though, that emails can become ‘lost’ – ensure you receive a receipt – indeed insist on it.
“Time and Way to send infringement” , does not good English sound. And “If you have rented a car BY a rental company” is not correct ‘by’ should be ‘from’.
One other thing, do check your rental agreement -as should everyone – if there is not a clause stating that you waive your rights under Italian privacy laws, then the rental company cannot share your personal information. Even if they do, then the document transfer system should be secure. Otherwise, this kind of information could fall into the wrong hands, or be tampered with.
Re time limits, as I understand Italian law on this subject. The time limit starts from when the fining authority receives your details – as being the person who committed the offence. However, if they state themselves that this is not the case, then then they may be wrong.
If you read information in the main post, and the comments from Rusty, you will discover that the lovely Italian authorities may have up to 2 years to collect fines.
Do remember that I am not a lawyer, and any information is merely personal opinion backed by some research.
All the best,
Alex
Alex – are there blatant “speed traps” in Italy?
Just FYI, here in Las Vegas, the local police conduct all kinds of speed traps and set-ups in various parts of the city.
They do this heavily in the older, more crime-ridden parts of town, presumably the thinking here is that if they catch a random speeder in those areas, he’s more likely to be a criminal violating a court warrant for something much bigger, like a drug rap.
But even in the newer, more upscale parts of Las Vegas and environs (e.g., where I live in Henderson), I’m starting to see police speed traps… usually police cars or motorcycle cops “hidden” on a side street, alley, or in a shopping center parking lot, poised to pounce on a speeder on some quiet street as the unwitting driver passes by.
Just wondered if this kind of stuff happens in Italy. I haven’t seen any of this there, as it doesn’t seem a very “European” thing to do… but knowing how much Europeans love to copy American tactics, I wouldn’t be surprised if this doesn’t happen soon.
I am another victim of Piza. What’s kind of funny about my situation is that I saw the sign and knew I shouldn’t go down this road , but there was a beeping Italian behind me. I continued only to get caught in a maze of narrow back roads that took me 30min to get out of, it was one of the great stories of my trip. My rental car company sent me the bad news along with a picture of my car and plates about 2 months after the fact, saying they would submit my credit card number to pay the fine. I thought it got paid. I need to check my statements to see. One year later I get a 113.00 Euro fine. My worry is if I don’t pay it and they have my credit card # they will charge the after 60 days charge of 185 Euros.
I love Italy, but from now on I will go to Croatia instead.
Gary
@Joe
Yes, there are blatant speed traps here. The police set up traps where they want, but most speed traps are fixed systems.
Basically, it’s the same as in your neck of the woods, both here and in the UK. The police target accident black spots and fast stretches of road. Even if now, most black spots have their very own fixed units. The UK has ‘gatso’ cameras all over the place.
Fixed speed checks are relatively recent in Italy – last 10 years or so, whereas in the UK, fixed units have been around for a few years more.
@Gary
Sorry to hear yet another one caught out in Pisa.
Don’t worry, they do not have your credit card. I don’t believe that the rental company is authorised to pass credit card info to the authorities. If so, this would be an invitation for trouble. And should you find out that the Pisa police have your credit card number – complain in strong terms, and cancel the card.
Read the my replies above for how to try to dispute these things. If you were transporting disabled people, you can have the fine annulled.
Hope you have a nice vacation in Croatia, and that there are no hidden surcharges…
All the best to both of you,
Alex
my husband receiveda “ticket” via the mail from October of 2007 for some traffic violation in Pisa.
we have tried to access the “photo” of our infringement and can not get the website to come up. any help out there is greatly appreciated! I was not in a hurry to go to Pisa (our second time) and now I will say I will NEVER go back.
we got a notice from Pisa as well for almost 200.00 us dollars.
Did you pay your fine?
Ive been a bad boy as well
received two speeding tickets in italy an hour and a half apart for the same stretch of road at the same place each for €180. (i have not received a speeding ticket in the last ten years in the UK or europe and i do a lot of miles) On each of the tickets it does not specify what road the incident occurred on, just a number of i presume the camera. How can i possibly verify if i was there or Not?
I also got two tickets for pisa traffic zone, 13 minutes apart(€110 each). i was driving around pisa for an hour looking for a parking spot, could of driven in and out of the zone many many times, who knows. Both myself and wife cannot remember any signs about not being allowed to drive within a certain area and i certainly was not advised by the car hire company that a zone existed.
I guess i am going to pay the speeding tickets but i will contest the pisa tickets as far as i can, it is unfair. I know that some would say that its the same as italliens coming over here aand driving in the congestion zone in london, but its not. In london you have the option to pay a fee to allow you to drive within it in pisa as far as i understand you do not. Pisa is a tourist area what do they expect tourist to do if they are not informed.
All of the tickets received just about within the year of the offences, this surely cannot be right or fair.
Anyway all of this leaves a very bad taste in the mouth, it looks to me as if it is a tourist trap.
I will put on hold any plans to visit italy again, i am due to organise a rugby trip for 50 people to italy or france. I guess france has just jumped to the top of the list, tourist office staff visiting this site please take note
my wife has just received (over a year later)Pisa’s now infamous claim for 113 euros for travelling in restricted zone. Thanks Alex for the support of this blog. I am going to write a letter to the tourist board with copies to the police and the Pisa Comune, saying that their attitude to toursits is outrageous. I am going to point out your website and point out just how many disgruntled international travellers are adamant they will not return. I will let you know the contents in due course. Incidentally,the official Pisa tourist map, marks neith one way streets, not the restricted traffic zones. michael
Wow! I’m having some trouble keeping up with all this.
Pisa is something of a fine hotspot, without a doubt.
@Michael – please go for it. Write to whoever you like. And send copies to a few national newspapers too. The more noise is made, the better the chance that something will be done.
Italian road signs are terrible – too many, too detailed and too late, just about sums the things up. And with impatient Italian drivers up your backside, you stand zero chance of seeing the sings which matter.
Let me know how you get on – and spread the word – do not go to Pisa by car!
Alex
I also recieved a ticket in the mail that was on September 9 in 2007.
Can somebody tell me where I can find the picture that they are refering to and where do I find verbele number on the sheet of paper that I recieved in the mail.
Thank you,
Norma
I too have had one of these and welcome any advice..I thought ‘Watchdog’ might be interested?
I too have been received a fine from Pisa(Two offences 8 minutes apart total 226 euro – I have been interested to note how often an 8 minute gap has been reported between offences in this blog). Anyway in my case its all doubly annoying as I was not in Italy at the time of the offence, nor have I ever hired a car from the hire company mentioned.
I have contacted the phone number on the letter and they were no help at all, they just kept asking ” well when were you in Pisa”. I have also sent e-mails to explain my position and ask for advice , all they do is reply with more advice on how to pay the fine and view the photo on the website.
The whole situation is outrageous, I too will be writing to the Italian tourist office and Pisa commune to demand an explanation.
Got my first 113 Euro surprise yesterday. Am expecting two more as Europcar took 96 Euro from my Amex in February. Car hire mob said they were for 3 parking fines in Pisa last November (3 in 20 minutes).
Being from Australia, there is no way I will be paying the fines, I am going to frame the infringement notices as a souvenir of our trip, and send a two word email to infostranier@sepi-pisa.it.
I am another ‘victim’ of Hertz and the Municipality of Pisa. My wife and I were in Italy in June 2007. We hired a car in Rome and headed North. We made a brief stop in Pisa, just to get some lunch and have a quick look around. Later in the week we stayed in Verona. In October, after our return to New Zealand, we received two invoices from Hertz for what I assumed were parking fines in Verona. They had already debited our credit card. Then in December we had another for a fine from Pisa. A couple of days ago we received an infringement notice from the Municipality of Pisa. When I tried to access the photograph I discovered your site. It was only then that I realised the invoices from Hertz were for ‘administration fees’ and not actual fines. After reading the posts on your site I have managed to see the photograph – just about all it shows is the car number plate – hardly proof of an offence. We certainly werent aware of any restricted zones.
I am hoping we wont receive further infringement notices from Verona. The times and dates given relate to us stopping outside the hotel we stayed at to unload our bags so maybe that will get us off any ‘infringement’
Reading all the comments on your site was very helpful. My inclination is not to make too much effort to pay the fine.
I have just received a 113 euro fine for the circulating in a restricted traffic zone while lost in Pisa.
My only fear is that there are more on the way. One or 2 i can handle more than that i think is just extracting the urine.
I too received a 113 euro fine last week (for circulating in a restricted zone in Pisa) from May 2007 but I have no idea when the cops got the info from Europcar – I can’t even remember which credit card I used but no doubt I have an additional charge on there which I missed. I would ignore it but I’m not sure how hot they are on nabbing you if you re-enter the country. Apparently, the UK does not pursue this type of offence with foreigners as it is not a criminal offence here whereas it is in Italy/Spain etc.
Like most others I did not see the sign either and I usually look out for these things. Anyone written to their MEP yet?
At the risk or being repetetive, I too have just received 2 requests for €113 for entering the fabled restricted zone in Pisa in August 2007. These are a day apart and are dated a year and a day after the offences. Suspecting a scam, I googled and that brought me here. I shall read what has gone before carefully but feel very aggrieved and will do whatever I can to get the fines dropped or forgotten. I’ll be reading everyone elses progress with great interest.
Alex, You can add this to your list of useful links:
http://www.bella-toscana.com/traffic_violations_italy.htm
Jon
@ Mike – do your worst. I have heard of people getting fines when they where not in the area at the time. Do prostest.
To other Pisa victims, I’ve just added this new post:
How to pay Pisa traffic violations
I hope it helps in some small way.
And Jon – thanks for the link.
Alex
@Sam Hobbs – I love the Watchdog idea! Go for it! Feel free to mention my name, and Blog from Italy.
Cheers,
Alex
PS If enough noise is made, something will happen.
For the moment though: Don’t stop in Pisa for pizza!
I think everyone affected should contact watchdog in the UK
http://www.bbc.co.uk/consumer/tv_and_radio/watchdog/contact_index.shtml
here is the address. the more people who talk out, the more chance of helping others
Well Ladies and Gentleman, I have now joined your club!!! Yip, that’s right 113 Euro fine for allegedly driving in a ZTL in Pisa in June 2007, no charges from Hertz yet….
.
I do hope that you all make me feel welcome!!!!
From what I have read there are 3 options. 1) Ignore the letter as it was not sent via registered mail; 2) Pay up and smile or 3) Contest the fine.
My preferred option is to contest the fine. – It looks like I’ll be spending the afternoon drafting a letter. It would be helpful if there was a template letter that could be sent to the authorities in Pisa which outlines all of the grounds to dispute the fine – does such a template exist??
The sickening part about this is that I have just returned from another weeks holiday in Italy which involved driving in Pisa and in Florence there will no doubt be further fines on the way. I’ve already cancelled the credit card I used with Europecar to try and avoid their charges.
Andy – thanks for the link. Which category would you suggest? There is no travel category. I suppose misc or Sport, leisure etc??
I’ll drop them a line too. I’m sure a couple of BBC people would love a jaunt to Pisa – and they could even hire a car!!
Paul – sorry to hear that yet another has joined this unhappy band. Do write to them – in English, regardless of what the Pisa bods insist. Italy is in the EC and English is an official language. Tell them this.
I think I’ve seen something template wise, in Italian, on a forum. I’ll see if I can track it down.
All the best,
Alex
Paul, and whoever else might be interested, do check out the discussion on this over at:
http://my.lifeinitaly.com/f2/traffic-violations-t1921/
Alex
I’m doing the Watchdog thing – I suggest “Holidays” and a subcategory of “Miscellaneous”
Well done Jon! Would you like me to write in too? The more the merrier theory, possibly??
Best,
Alex
There is also a ‘Car Rental’ category under the main transport category…
I think as many people should write in as possible to raise the attention level. It’s important that they know just how many have been clobbered. We should also give your blog a reference so the researchers can do their homework.
PS – In your “How To Pay Pisa Traffic Violations” blog you asked for copies of our unusual holiday snaps. I couldn’t find an email address that I could attach my 2 snaps to. Can you point me in the right direction please – or PM me. Thanks!
“There is also a ‘Car Rental’ category under the main transport category…”
I think that is for issues with car rental companies specifically. Our primary issue is with the local highwaymen, the rental companies are caught in the middle, although they are charging us for the privilege.
Jon – send me a mail via the contact system:
http://www.blogfromitaly.com/contact/
And you’ll have an address if you copy the contact info to yourself.
Cheers,
Alex
I have just emailed watchdog and will draft my appeal over the next couple of days…a template is a really good idea, just send loads of appeals and maybe they will crumble under the workload.
To Paul and others.
The biggest mistake I made on this was accepting the Registered letters from the municipality of Pisa. Once you do so, you have been officially served, and have the responsibility of dealing with the issue. If you do not accept the letters, then the “court” has no proof that you have been properly notified, and can not continue to hold the claim against you.
NEVER ACCEPT REGISTERED LETTERS FROM UNKNOWN SOURCES.
I too, have emailed Watchdog.
Categories look a bit blase………..but ahve done it all the same.
Hopefully something will be done.
I also phoned them in Pisa to ask if I could pay by debit card Maestro……….they didnt like that and kept insisting it was a credit card.We’ve ended up paying the fine through a World Pay system at the bank , it will cost us £9 as well as the 113 euros fine.
Daylight robbery!!!
I too received 3 fines, at a 8 minutes difference one from the other, from the Pisa police department for the same reason travelling in their restricted zones…last September.I did not received the fines by registrered mail, and did not get any additional charge from Hertz…yet! I agree to pay 1 fine but not 3..I found a site under (Prefettura di Pisa)containing documentation on how you can contest a fine, there is a template to fill out and then it is presented to either the Prefect or the Justice of the peace, but the catch is, that if they reject your request you will have to pay at least minimum double the amount of the fine i.e 226 euros each yack! and if I dont pay the fines I am afraid the rental company comes back further down the road with 3 charges of 185 euros each + their charges on my credit card, can they do this?
I’m with Paul (from Australia) on this one. The completely inadequate signage and multiple fines issued minutes apart means that any moral obligation I had to pay is out the window. A small sacrifice is that I will not be able to go back to Pisa – but then the world’s a big place.
Dave
Hi All,
I don’t know if this will lead to anything, but the European parliament is showing up in my site visitors records, and whoever it was looked at this page.
Fingers crossed!
Please take a look at the photos in this post:
http://www.blogfromitaly.com/how-to-pay-pisa-traffic-violations/
I would be interested to hear if anyone else had the hired the same car. Always assuming that it was a hire car. Pretty sure it was.
I don’t think there has been any collusion – more like poor road signs, drivers not familiar with the areas and the unrelenting pace of Italian drivers – who don’t give anyone enough time to absorb the sea of road signs – all rigidly in Italian, of course. Bigger, clearer road signs are needed IMHO
All the best,
Alex
Same thing has happened to me. Has anyone acutally been successful in getting these ridiculous fines dropped or reduced? Does anyone know if you can pay them up bit by bit (no way can we afford it as a one off payment). Also who is the best person to write to to complain about this? Thank you.
Just to say that I too have contacted “Watchdog”. However, as they are off air until October I hope this doesn’t leave it too late for us. Does anyone have the email address for the Provincial Governor of Italy?
@Christine: How does this World Pay thing work to pay this fine? I have decided I would just like to pay the fine and be done with this (and never return to Pisa again), but the truth is I am in the US, and I haven’t the slightest idea how to go about paying this fine without spending a small fortune and guaranteeing it arrives on time and in sufficient quantity.
I have contacted My MEP’s that serve the county that i live in, with a reference to this site. So it could be something to do with that.
I have over 30 days to pay my first fine so hopefully we can get a resolution within that time. Everyone needs to contact there MEP and Watchdog about this. One fine i guess is acceptable if the rules were broken but multiple fines is just milking a cash cow
John phoned our bank and told them the quandary. The girl was quite helpful and gave us 2 options the cheapest way was wolrd pay…….£9 plus the euors amount takes a week to arrive……and the swift payment which they advocate is £25!!!!!!!! but quicker………….
Yes, I’ve been got by the dreaded 113Euros in Pisa. Seen the photo, etc. My bank, Natwest gave me the IBAN form to fill in, and told me it would cost 10GBP to process, ontop of the euros. It’s the slowest method, (about 5 working days), hence it’s the cheapest. Not available online as yet.
Still undecided as to whether to pay or not. I don’t really want to exclude myself from Italy. There is a recorded delivery waiting for me at the Post office, which I’ve not picked up yet…..
Cheers
Phil
Thanks for the replies.
So has anyone just ignored the letter that you have received informing you of the fine?
As mentioned previously surely if there was no proof of notification, there are no grounds to pursue.
From what I have read, after receiving the initial letter they will then send another via registered post – does anyone know how long this normally takes?
Thanks
Paul
Well I got my first “letter” about a week and a half ago,and now there’s a recorded letter waiting to be picked up, (which may not ever get picked up…….I am assuming it’s the official version)
My “offence” was 09/09/08.
The irony of the situation was, when we got back to our hire car, after walking round Pisa, some t**t had crashed into it, on the rhs, which was up against the pavement !!!!! Fortunately, the collison waver sorted that out.
HTH
Phil
Ooops, spot the deliberate mistake……….almost credited the Italians with being on-the-ball there. My offence was 08/09/2007.
For those who are paying the infamous Euro 113 fine from Pisa; Do you know what the receiving bank charge is for money that is wire transferred.
I got a notice to pay to
CASSA DI RISPARMIO LUCCA PISA LIVORNO
AGENZIA 1- CORSO ITALIA 4-56125 PISA
Account number: IBAN IT 50 B 06200 14021 00000235970
Thanks
Well – that was a good few hours spent reading web sites on Pisa traffic fine scams! In conclusion, i think it is an official ‘scam’ and as i aim to go back will have to cough up.
My bank – Lloyds TSB – will pay the €113 plus £20 admin fee – but need the name and address of the bank. Can anyone help with this as there is no information that i can make out in the letter.
Thanks for any help.
Ashvin – the IBAN code does not appear to be valid – the 00000235970 is one digit too short – needs to be 12 digits.
As for the receiving bank charges – of the top of my head – probably around 10Euros – but I need to check. Probably depends on where the money is coming from.
Peter – take a look at the comment before yours. If the IBAN number is the about the same, then it is the same bank.
Otherwise there should be an IBAN number which you can check out here:
http://www.iban-bic.com/iban_validieren.html?&L=2
If you click on the sub-results, then the name of the bank should come up too.
Alex
To one and all – can you post the Pisa (and other ) IBAN numbers here? Let’s ensure that they are the same. In theory they should be. If not, then things may be a little smelly.
I’m also thinking about the possibility of petitioning the EC over this, thanks to Julia and Michael. Not sure how to set up such a thing though. Will look into it and see what I can discover.
Cheers,
Alex
My numbers quoted on my letter (not the official recorded letter, which I’ve not yet picked up), are:-
IBAN IT 28 0760114000000059900076
BIC (swift code) BPPIITRRXXX
or payment by bank made in favour of
SEPI SPA COMUNE DI PISA SANZIONI
Cheers
Phil
The IBAN number I have for CASSA DI—- PISA LIVORNO
BANK is
IBAN IT 50 B 06200 000000235970
(I had missed a zero in my earlier mail)
You can also send payment to post office
IBAN IT 28 Z 07601 14000 000059900076
I will be wire transferring from the U.S. Is there any way to find out the precise charge from the receiving bank/post office ?
thanks
Ashvin
Come on folks – we must not pay up but challenge it. We have no way of appealling successfully. This is because my husband was the driver and he has autism. To appeal you must write in perfect Italian. He has severe difficulties communicating in English due to his disability so how on earth could he possibly communicate in a foreign language that he cannot speak one word of anyway?
Hi everyone,
Diane’s comment has got me thinking. I had a look at the Italian constitution, and more perticularly,
Article 24 [Right to be Heard in Court]
(1) Everyone may bring cases before a court of law in order to protect their rights under civil and administrative law.
The key word is ‘everyone’ in that in the Italian version, the word ‘tutti’ is used. This implies anyone and everyone regardless of nationality.
By sending out notices in English and then stating, in a contradictory fashion, that appeals may only be submitted in Italian, the Pisa, or whatever Italian authorities appear to be acting outside the rules of the Italian constitution – under which all are considered equal in the eyes of the law.
This means you may appeal in whatever language you like – it is up to the Italian authorities to translate and respond appropriately – in my opinion.
It is unjust that they send out fines in – poor – English, and then state that you must appeal in Italian – and they say this in English. I believe this alone may serve to invalidate just about all of the notifications/fines send out to date.
What we need is a friendly lawyer to present this case in Italy. The Pisa authorities may well be acting beyond the provisions of their own countries constitution.
I’d be interested to hear the opinion of others on this hypothesis.
And Diane, seeing as your husband has a disability and he was driving, then the car was being used for the transportation of persons with a disability – therefore you should not have to pay a bean theoretically.
Alex
Ashvin – I’d need to check on this. Banks reopen on Monday. I’ll ring and ask.
Alex
Guys,
In Saturday’s Guardian, money section there was a front page article on the scam that it fines in Italy. a la our experiences. It’s interesting to note that they give percentages of fines given to germans, italians and french folk while they are in Britain. it’s obvious that Germans don’t pay our fines !!!!!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money
The article is the 1st one highlighted
Alex,
Well spotted regarding the Italian legal wording. May I assume that you are fluent in the language? If so may I suggest that to get some local legal comment (not advice as such but opinion from people who claim to know the local laws) that you get onto the newsgroup called:
it-alt.lavoro.professioni.avvocati.domiciliazioni-legali
which AFAIK is something to do with jobs for lawyers but in there there should be some knowledge perhaps? I was tempted to try (in English of course) but suspect that I would be ignored at best.
Thanks again for keeping us informed as well as hosting a very useful community.
Ian
Thanks. Have a look at the bottom of the letter at the paragraph beginning “This formal notice, its serving and everything connected with it are governed by the international conventions in existence between Italy and Grait Britain…”
“Grait Britain” – where on earth is that?? Technically, no such place exists so we are surely all exempt!
There’s an article posted in this Saturday’s Guardian regarding such fines…….
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money
Caught in Holiday traffic is the article……..worth a read guys…..
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money
an article worth reading guys………..it might sound vaguely familiar
hey guys,
see link for article in yesterday’s guardian……..
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money
Hi Christine,
Sorry your comments did not get published immediately – they got spammed. I’ve just de-spammed them. The article:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2008/sep/13/motoring.consumeraffairs
is interesting and reflects my own point of view, aside from whether these fines are fair or not, if you don’t cough up, then there is a risk that non-payment may lead to ‘consequences’ when returning to Italy. Please read the article.
Ian – I do speak and read Italian well enough, but my written Italian is not up to much alas. I shall speak to some Italian lawyer friends of mine about this too.
I had thought about doing this before, but their advice would have required sending letters to the Pisa authorities and contesting things in court. Such a course of action will inevitably cost money – as well as considerable time and effort to set up. I’m a little reluctant to go down such a path as I’m not too sure where it will end up.
Reading the Guardian article it does look as though the fines are legitimate, so arguing a case in an Italian court would not be too straight forward and you can bet your bottom Euro that the Pisa authorities, and others, will fight tooth and nail to hold on to this little income stream.
Personally, I reckon adverse media attention will be more effective – and cheaper, so it would be good to get the Watchdog people on board, if we can.
Should Watchdog not work out, then getting lawyers involved may be an option, even if the time-scale involved will be long – as will be the cost. Court cases take an age to be resolved in Italy – and 10 years is an oft quoted length of court cases here – possibly more if you appeal things to the highest court here or take the thing to Europe.
Let me know your thoughts on the above. Anyway, I’ll have a go at Watchdog when I’ve got a moment.
All the best to one and all,
Alex
To All,
I have written to the Guardian.co.uk. If I receive any response, I’ll let you know. I shall also publish the letter I have written.
Regards,
Alex
I have also written to the Guadian @ money.editor@guardianunlimited.co.uk.
Thanks Phillip.
Hope they reply, or even better, come digging.
Cheers,
Alex
If anyone is looking for the Guardian article and can’t find it the direct link is:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2008/sep/13/motoring.consumeraffairs
Thanks Jon – I had already posted the link above. If it does not do its linky thing, let me know.
Regards,
Alex
Sorry – I duplicated.
No problem Jon!
Duplicate away – the more people see the Guardian article, the better.
By the way, the Guardian has replied to my email, and I’m in the process of drafting a reply – must have some lunch too!
Maybe something will start moving. I hope so, on behalf of everyone here. Please, please keep those fine documents!
All the best,
Alex
OK – I have replied to the Guardian. Will keep you updated on progress.
Cheers,
Alex
I have also replied to the Guardian. I had a reply from the Italian Tourist Board today saying that they cannot enter into negotiations with the Municipality of Pisa. Another door slams…
Well done for trying Diane. Watch out for a new post on this issue!
Best,
Alex
Hi all,
Diane, and the rest of you might like this recent post:
Italy doesn’t Give a Damn about Tourists
All the best,
Alex
I am currently in talks with my MEP, they are currently looking into the issues and will keep you updated with any information i can!
Cheers
Andy
Good stuff Andy!
Keep up the great work! I’m hoping to hear back from the Guardian.
If we keep up the pressure, then something will come out of this. Might kick me out of Italy though!
By the way, the Pisa fine photo checking server appears to be down – well one person has not been able to get in.
Can others confirm that the server is up or down? Here is the link:
https://secure.comune.pisa.it/tzv/Login.jsp
Try looking at those photos once more, if you don’t mind.
All the best to one and all,
Alex
Hi Alex,
Thanks for blog info, add me to the Pisa list for restricted traffic zone without authorisation ‘violators’ Ridiculous isn’t it and clearly a money raising venture for them given how poor their sign posting and street lighting at night is.
Interestingly, when I phoned 0039 050 220561 the girl I spoke to said to send a bank cheque and £ sterling would be acceptable. I got her to confirm this twice. I’m tempted to pay but continue the arguments?
Alex and All,
I have today got home to find a pink recorded delivery slip (all in Italian) on my doormat with the sender ‘Corpo Della Polizia Locale’. I holidayed in Venice a few months ago and suspect it is a fine for some sort of traffic offence whilst out there.
My question is ‘Do people think i should bother to organise the collection of the letter from the post office?’
I fear a hefty fine that I can ill afford and if ‘they’ have no record of receipt, could anything be followed up without any such evidence of receipt?
I look forward to reading anyones views?
Steve
Hi Steve,
Hope you weren’t driving in Venice;-)!
If you are sure that this is a fine, really sure, then you could probably forget to retrieve it from the post office I suppose.
They might try again, or might catch up with you if you enter Italy in the future.
Your decision. Fines should be paid of course.
Regards,
Alex
Hi
I just received a surchage from car hire company Hertz for a “verbale fine on line” committed in April. So I suspect the actual police fine to arrive later. No idea what for though we were driving in centre of Bologna so probably some kind of restriction on traffic was in force. We were actually lost and trying to find a car park.
I have Italian friends so if the real fine arrives I will ask them to help out with investigating … and maybe paying.
My initial reaction is to probably ignore it though might want to go back to Italy one day!
Has anyone actually ignore these fine and got away with it ?
Cheers Fraser
After doing a bit of investigating, the authorities in the UK have 14 days in which to issue notification of intention to prosecute for a motoring offence. I know that does not help much, but if you think the Italian authorities have 180 days in which to notify locals and 360 days in the case of a foreigner, you must be falling for every scam in he book.
What I don’t understand is why the Nigerians are not operating this scam – there appears to be a lot of money to be made from you mugs.
Mike,
What is done in the UK is not that relevant alas. Italy has its own laws, and a totally different legal system to the UK too.
That a longer period is specified under Italian law is a reflection of the fact that things take longer here.
As for this being a scam. It may or may not be. This is being looked into by MEPs and, hopefully, the Guardian newspaper.
Watch this space.
Cheers,
Alex
Hi again!
I have just had a letter from my MEP who is very aware of this issue and has noticed its recent media attention.
She is going to take this up with the Italian embassy in London to see if an amicable agreement can be reached
Great news Andy!
Excellent. Good job.
Fingers crossed on the amicable agreement front!
Cheers,
Alex
Undoubtedly, part of the reason UK authorities are limited to a 14 day period in which to notify of an intended motoring prosecution, is that you are expected to be able to recall who was driving the car at the time – clearly Italians have far better memory recall than British drivers, remembering who was driving their car on a particular day, 6 months ago.
I have just received THREE of these Pisa TZV fines that were ammassed within 12 minutes – driving around that area looking for a park….
Excellent!
They are now sent in english with a link to a municipal site with the photos of the number plate – so they are legitimate… Quite a trap for tourists there, especially when the same camera catches you multiple time at a cost of 113 euros each…
https://secure.commune.pisa.it/tzv/login.jsp
Any idea about non payment and what that means?
Hi Peter,
Three fines! Wow.
Are they still writing ‘Grait Britain’ on the fine notifications? Or have they finally discovered the joys of the spell checker or dictionary?
The link does not want to work by the way.
As for their being legitimate – well, I could take photos of car number plates and pop them on an official looking website if I wished.
If you wish you may send the photos to contact at blogfromitaly dot com. I’ll publish them so everyone can see how these photos look, and whether they appear to have been edited etc.
Thanks for writing.
Kind regards,
Alex
Hi Alex
Brilliant, but I think that we must find a way of getting all these “fines” frozen in the interim period. Is this possible? By the way, on the advice of the Italian Tourist Board in London I was told to contact the local Pisa tourist office:-
aptpisa@pisaturismo.it
I did this on Tuesday – but I’ve been deafened by the silence. Why can’t these people have the courtesy to reply? I for one refuse point blank to pay.
Hi Diane,
Not sure as to how we could get these fines frozen – that would require Italian government intervention, and all of Italy’s politicos are trying to sort out the Alitalia mess at the moment.
While Italian people are generally encouraged to pay and then dispute in these situations, I have heard of those who dispute and pay later – if required. You could sit on the fine in the hope that something will happen, but you might end up with a bigger fine as a result – not necessarily though.
As for your contact with the Pisa tourist mob, don’t expect them to reply overnight. Italy moves slowly. Send them another email.
Italy, like many countries, does not appreciate foreigners like us interfering – BUT when these foreigners provide a considerable source of revenue for the country, you would expect a slightly more sympathetic reaction.
The biggest hope is that this situation finally breaks into the media at large. Italy hates making a ‘brutta figura’ and will be forced to do something.
Here’s to hoping.
By the way, emailed the Guardian asking if there was any news, but the paper has not replied yet.
Cheers,
Alex
If it waddles like a scam and quacks like a scam – then in all probability it is a scam.
If you don’t pay these fines, there is virtually nothing the Italian authorities can do to re-coupe them (even if they are genuine).
Alex points out that you might receive a visit from the police, when you next find yourself in Italy. By Alex’s own admission, the police cannot manage to issue motoring fines within 300 days of an offence – the chances of them knowing that you have returned to Italy and your location, are absolutely zero.
I have heard that there are plans afoot to make motoring offences a pan-European offence, whereby the responsibility for collection of the fine will be passed on to you local enforcement authority. So UK citizens committing a motoring offence anywhere in Europe, will ultimately be chased by DVLA for payment. The reason for this proposed change is exactly that, it is virtually impossible to collect motoring offence fines, across international borders.
This news will have the perpetrators of this scam rubbing their hands with glee – since a far higher percentage of ‘fines’ will be collected. It will not worry those involved in the scam that a few tourists are put out, as long as their revenue stream continues.
If the above-proposed pan-European system comes into force, it will do you no good to claim that the motoring offence committed in Italy is part of a scam – your national government will be honour-bound to collect the fines.
Mike,
“By Alex’s own admission, the police cannot manage to issue motoring fines within 300 days of an offence”
I’m not admitting anything – just telling it like it is. Italy is slow.
As for the collection of fines directly in the drivers country of origin, I was aware of this and have mentioned it before.
I know it might feel like a scam, but the signs are that it is not. Still, hopefully the Pisa area will be better signposted in future.
Kind regards,
Alex
The Italian police might be slow – but they have one amazing ability, and that is that they can determine whether a driver of a car is an Italian national or not. That or a very strange process of issuing penalty notices, whereby once the hire car company has notified them that the driver is a foreigner, they don’t bother to issue a fine, but place in on a pile to be dealt with sometime later.
Waddle, waddle, quack, quack.
I found this today while trawling the net for Italian Fines.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1707289.ece
Not the same as the circulating issue, but interesting indeed!
Hi Alex,
Chalk me up as another victim of the Pisa “honey trap”
Like others I had probs getting my plate photo up on the website but I can confirm the comments of “Braden” that you must remove the leading zero from the “Numbero Verbale” (how user friendly is that! I develop web app by the way
). I only got this important info after emailing the contact address twice. It came in a long explanation email which I could post here if anyone thinks it would be useful.
So how do I feel about the situation?
Well yes, we were there at the date/time stated and I guess we did drive down that street. Mind you we drove down so many streets trying to find a parking place/meter that I couldn’t say for sure!
Did we see the restricted entrance sign? Well no, but even if we did would we have known what it meant? I guess not. So who’s fault is that? Okay, it’s our fault for not learning the road signs of the country we were visiting. As a driver you have the responsibility to know the rules of the roads you are driving on.
Okay, so yes, we were there at the date/time stated and ignorance of a country’s road traffic signs is no defence.
So what’s the gripe? Well it’s the time it’s taken for them to come after us! I’ve read all the words here and understand the 60 day/360 day rule but come on, how many tickets do they issue? How long does it take! I could have moved home in that time, hell I could have died! Are they going to come after my family if they every visit Italy again?
Am I going to pay? Well as we were in the wrong, I guess so but they don’t make it easy. I’m going to try a sterling cheque with the exchange rate in my favour and send it recorded delivery and see what happens.
Ciao,
dickbob
P.S. Thanks for the blog posting, most helpful and I think one of the longest running I’ve ever read!
Andy – thanks for that Sunny link. It shows you just how good Italians are at setting up scams – and that is the tip of an iceberg.
At times it is difficult to know just whether something is legitimate or a fiddle here. Which does make the Pisa situation suspect, that I’ll grant you. One famous Italian fiddle was actually advertised on mainstream TV.
Still hoping to hear more on the Pisa front.
Cheers.
Alex
Hi Alex, I have a notification from each city, 6 and 11 months later. I paid the first as I was returning just after receiving the notification and wanted to avoid a potential problem with the police. I am arguing over the second as we were displaying two disabled passes, one of which belonged to my co-driver and the other to one of our friends who was a passenger. I wrote to my MEP on the 1st occassion & she couldn’t get anywhere. “Shafted Tourist”s entry 21/09 was very helpful and overcame what I believe are deliberate obstacles to gainign entry to the secure.comune.pisa web site. Based onthe information in “Shafted”s posting, I have emailed sepi-pisa-it advising them they have made a mistake. I have complained to my MP and will also complain to my MEP. Photo is on its way to you!
We just joined the club. After getting a few weird charges on our card last spring, we cancelled the card and paid a $36 fine and haven’t thought about it since. Until today; exactly 366 days since we were in Siracusa. My wife signed for a registered letter that contained two notices for 110.10 Euros. I don’t really have any intention of paying at this point, but would be willing to pay the local fine(I assume the huge cause is due to EMO’s mark-up). I haven’t seen any posts that discuss this. Since this is the initial notification, is there a mechanism for paying the fine, not the ridiculous amount the collection agency is charging. I’m in the US—any chance I could pay the fine at the exchange rate when I was there??
Hi to one and all,
The Guardian has published my letter to them on this issue, it can be seen here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2008/sep/20/10?gusrc=rss&feed=money
Then scroll down to:
Point of no return over Pisa traffic fines
Kind regards,
Alex
@Persecuted Florence & Pisa Tourists
The disabled passes should get you off. And please do send those photos – there is a very, very slight possibility that they are not sufficient proof.
@John,
Maybe we should produce a T-shirt for all the ‘members’ here! Polite, suggestions for a slogan welcome.
How about:
I was f***d in Italy. – f***d = fined, of course!
As for paying the fine at the exchange rate when you were here – technically this is perfectly correct. Realistically though, I doubt whether you would have any luck. Still, it might be fun trying. The more everybody snarls up the admin bods with post, the better – I WANT TO HEAR ABOUT BETTER SIGNS!
As for the collection agency’s ‘mark-up’, not sure what could be done about that – lawyer territory.
All the best to both of you,
Alex
Alex,
Some more letters on the Guardian site here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2008/sep/27/10
I too sent in one but I am happy that there are several people published pointing out the problem. Let’s hope it keeps in the news.
Ian
Hi all,
Can someone please clarify exactly where we should send an appeal to these fines? Is it the address on the letter?
Municipality of Pisa
Municipal Police station
Piazza Facchini 16 – 56125 Pisa
or
Prefetto di Pisa (whoever/where ever that is!)
Thanks
Ian
Hi Alex,
I have been informed that our fine (multa) has been cancelled, I don’t have any details yet but all I can say is that it is due to providing a copy of the notification letter and disabled badge holders to the police. However, it will take 30 days before I receive confirmation. Regarding the previous posting about where should an appeal be sent to, for Pisa, the letter from the police says that the appeal has to go to the Prefetto at the Municipal Police Station, the address is on the top of the letter. However the appeal has to be in Italian, try http://www.bablefish.com for translation services. Although the letter doesn’t say so, an article quoting a member of sepi-pisa states you can fax a document to the Prefect of Pisa, 0039-050549666.
See http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g187895-i68-k2226761-o20-Pisa_Restricted_Zone_Traffic_Fine-Florence_Tuscany.html
Search for a posting by Dpoid Posted on: 6:25 pm, September 17, 2008
Based upon my experience, there is no point emailing, faxing or telephoning sepi-pisa for clarification. They did not reply to my email or fax. When I eventually got through onthe telephone, the lady I spoke to didn’t really understand English. I have read that sepi-pisa advise it isn’t their role to deal with appeals. So, my advice is don’t waste your time or theirs by trying to contact them.
I’m waiting on feedback from an Italian lawyer to clarify Italian motoring law. I’ll let you know the outcome and my next steps.
Great news about having the fine annulled Mr P!
Well done! Your persistence has obviously paid off.
There is hope.
And thanks for all the info. Should be very useful for other persecuted ex-Pisa tourists.
Thanks for letting us all know.
Cheers,
Alex
Hi Alex
Have you seen the article from the Timesonline on 18th September?
“Italian motorists demand return of fines after massive traffic lights scam”
Could ours be a huge scam as well? Looks a bit like from where I’m standing.
Hi Diane,
I have not seen the Times article, but I do remember reading this in one of our local Italian newspapers. I am going to write something about it, and yes, the thought did cross my mind with that the Pisa fines could be yet another Italian scam.
As to how it can be proved, I don’t really know. However Pisa would be something of an ideal scam in that foreign motorists are more likely to pay up than to dispute these fines, especially as they need to contend the things in Italian.
And it is odd that most of the comments here relate to Pisa, and not many other Italian cities – which is something I have already commented on.
However, just because scams are common in Italy does not mean that the Pisa situation is one…but it does make you wonder. This is certainly true.
Regards,
Alex
Hi Alex,
Same story as all of above. I am from ROI. Was on a family holiday in Italy last year July/Aug 2007. Got a €107 fine from the Arezzo authorities and sent an appeal that I had paid it as €60 euros taken out of my cc account by the car hire co. I can see now that it was probably a fee for providing authorities with my details. Then, last month another fine for €113 from Pisa.
I have no intention of paying either and will ignore all Italian reg letters as “lotto scams” and will not accept them. Will let you know how I get on but anyone who pays this sort of crap is mad in my view. By the way, I was in the two towns on the days cited but did not see any signs about restricted areas.
Well done on the good work – keep it up!
Hi Des – sorry to hear from yet another Pisa victim. I really am starting to wonder just how legal the Pisa thing is.
Especially after hearing about modified traffic lights, ‘adjusted’ red light jumping cameras, and now, only today, suspicions that Milan’s Ecopass pollution control system restricted traffic area cameras may have also been played with.
I am starting to wonder just how many Italians have been receiving ZTL fines from the Pisa lot. If it turns out that very few Italians have been fined, then that will make me even more suspicious. Not that I can find this kind of info out – this is something for MEPs and the like.
A few facts would help here.
As for payment – do whatever you think is best – although we should assume Pisa is innocent until proven guilty…
And thanks for the show of appreciation – it’s appreciated!
Cheers – and when I learn anything new, I’ll write something.
Alex
Hi One and All,
I’ve just had a crazy thought.
What if the company which installed the Pisa ZTL cameras also happened to be one of the same companies involved in the fiddled traffic lights in Milan and 30 other towns in Italy,
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4779467.ece
and installed the tweaked red light T-Red cameras also in Milan, and, possibly fiddled Ecopass cameras in Milan too? Actually, I do believe that at least one company was involved in the installation of both the fiddled traffic lights and the dodgy red light jumper cameras.
If a common name could be found, then there may be grounds for contacting the authorities and to request a formal investigation into the Pisa situation.
In theory, the installation of the ZTL cameras in Pisa should have been put out to public tender, in which case the company or companies which did the work should be public knowledge. This may be an interesting line of questioning for an MEP to try.
I’ll have a go at calling the Pisa authorities on Monday and see if I can find someone who can give me this information. Of course, if people are evasive or refuse to talk to me, then this could be construed as being evidence that something is not right.
Watch this space!
Alex
I know there’s a picture of the roadsign above, but I’d like to see pix of the signs and cameras in context – just how obvious or hidden are they?
Anyone out there got one to post?
Thanks
Hi, I’m another unsuspecting tourist to Pisa who has been traped by this rediculous method of revenue raising. I received my fine nearly 11 months after the offence occured in 2007. I was on holiday with my family and we entered Pisa from the south. We stopped following our map when we saw some signs leading the way to the leaning tower. The leaning tower signs seemed to become less frequent so we got lost and we ended up making a wrong turn into the restricted area. As with others, I was trying to avoid holding up other drivers and causing traffic congestion although I had no idea that a restricted area exists. I had no idea of it until the fine turned up.
Anyway, our fine was in rough english but payment details were hard to understand. I emailed infostranieri@sepi-pisa.it to see if there was an email address I could use to appeal the fine. I received a prompt standard type of reply which was helpful with payment details but the appeal must be written in Italian and sent by registered post. I then read this blog and sent a further email asking if there would be an increased fine if any appeal was rejected. That was 10 days ago and after another attempt 4 days ago I’ve heard nothing.
I have no doubt that this fine is genuine and I’ve decided that I can never win with this lot so I paid it yesterday using the bank details I received in the email reply that I did receive. Unfortunately this became very expensive by the time the currency conversion and bank fees were added to the 113 euro.
I have three reasons for paying the fine:
1. I don’t want the hire car company to slog me with extra fees if they end up getting the fine due to me not paying.
2. I don’t want to risk any issues when we travel to Italy in 2009 with our extended family. We have decided though that we will not go anywhere near Pisa or Florence.
3. I hate having bills outstanding and feel more comfortable finalising this matter.
One positive of this is that it makes me appreciate the ethics and true democracy of the country I live in.
Cheers
The Stig.
…..please don’t tell me you are “the” Stig. (UK petrol heads will know who I mean!)
Hi Phil – I was wondering too – I get the Italian version of a certain magazine based on a famous car program, which I think you well know.
Could this be the real ‘Stig’?!
For those not in the know, the magazine is Top Gear.
Very good car mag!
Cheers,
Alex
I wrote to my MEP about the fines I have received. He has written a very good letter to the Italian Ambassador and asked him to raise with the Pisa authorities. I’ll post any reply (if any !) thats received.
if anyone else wants to try this address is
HE Giancarlo Aragona KCMG
Italian Embassy
14 Three Kings Yard
Davies Street
London
W1Y 2EH
No I’m not “the” Stig but I’m also a Top Gear fan and thought that the name sort of sarcasticly fits for this blog!!!!!
Nice one “stig”
But then of course, the real Stig would never reveal his, or her true identity…….
(sorry to hijack the blog Alex, back to fines and scams…….)
Phil
Hi, unfortunatly I seem to have fallen victim to the Pisa ZTL scam. Great site here btw.
Anyway, I have written to my MEP about it although I havent actually recieved anything from the Italian authorities yet.
I though I might just “return to Sender” anything that arrives through the post and obviuosly I wont sign for anything sent recorded delivery. any ideas if this might work?
Just though I would mention that the link to the Pisa vehicle photos appears to be unusually case sensitive. The word “Login” needs to be capitalised for it to work. Hope that helps.
And Yes – you can add us to the Pisa victims too. Just received our fine from June 2007 for circulating in a restricted zone. It’s a photocopy and who knows if the bank account is for real? The hire company have not answered my questions either. The photo is black and white and is simply the back end of the hire car and a piece of tarmac!
I’ve already had to pay a speeding fine and hire company admin charges from the beginning of the same holiday, 7 days earlier. The fine arrived in the same manner, although a little more official and easier to check out.
Nothing new here then!
@Phil – I was a bit sorry to hear that the real ‘Stig’ had not dropped in here! Would be good if he or she did though, or even that Clarkson bloke!
@Thescouselander – Gald you like the site! On the fine front, you could try avoiding the registered letter, I suppose. Just be sure it’s not that registered letter telling you that you’ve won 15 million on the lottery!
@Tracie R – Someone has already told me about this Login thing – can’t remember if it was a mail or a comment – I’m getting plenty of both about this Pisa thing! But you are right.
Oh, the bank account is real, that’s a cetainly – whether it is legitimate – that’s another question. Traffic fine scams are an issue here in Italy at them moment – have a gander at my recent post:
http://www.blogfromitaly.com/italian-traffic-light-scams/
As for the photo – look at this one here:
http://www.blogfromitaly.com/how-to-pay-pisa-traffic-violations/
The photos I’ve seen are b/w, and don’t show a fat lot. Question is, are the cameras officially certified? Some in Milan were not, and an Italian has his and many other fines declared null and void.
Hold onto those payment receipts people!
Cheers,
Alex
Thescouselander – which MEP did you write to?
Let me know please – another MEP is digging too – if they are not one and the same.
TTFN,
Alex
Hi again!
I had to stump up on Friday as my deadline was drawing to a close, and due to me going skiing in March in Italy i needed to pay it (well i wasn’t but the wife insisted).
I will continue looking for an answer as if i could get a refund it would be great! (I’m not holding my breath).
All in all my fine came to roughly £111. Thats with exchange rate, £16 bank charge and 5 a euro “handling” fee by the Italian banks.
Nice little earner for everyone involved!
I still think its a gross tax on tourists and personally i will never return to Pisa.
My biggest fear now is that the Italians now know that i paid the fine. If this is a real scam they will open the flood gates and send more fines.
Well, I just used the writetothem site to contact all of my MEPs, they are: Glyn Ford, Roger Knapman, Neil Parish, Graham Watson and Caroline Jackson
Hi Thescouselander – thanks for the reply. MEP Glyn Ford is aware of the Pisa problem – so another letter will do no harm at all.
@Andy,
Welcome back! Moving money between countries has never been cheap – and Italian banks love their charges.
As for getting money back – don’t hold your breath – but hold on to any payment receipt for a few years. You never know…
With a little luck someone will have a go at checking whether the Pisa cameras have been officially certified, although I imagine the Pisa authorities will be working to cover any such problems after the recent case in Milan.
http://www.blogfromitaly.com/italian-traffic-light-scams/
“My biggest fear now is that the Italians now know that i paid the fine. If this is a real scam they will open the flood gates and send more fines.”
Judging from the continual flow of comments here, which often seem to be about Pisa – if this is a scam – the floodgates are already open.
At least what is happening here might, I repeat, might, get the Pisa lot and others to check this out. Fewer comments here mean fewer fines. At least I hope so.
All the best to one and all,
Alex
Hi again,
Surprisingly my MEP has emailed me back already (very efficient!). Unfortunately the news is not good, here is the reply:
Roger Knapman MEP has asked me to thank you for your email and to reply. He has in fact investigated this issue in the past as we have had previous complaints – both about Italian cities and some French equivalents.
To be frank there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. Traffic regulations and their enforcement are entirely matters for the national governments or local authorities concerned and they are not amenable to external pressure. The only way you can challenge this is to engage a good lawyer in Italy and try to argue your case through the Italian courts. However it is probably cheaper and certainly easier just to pay whatever fines they impose.
The only way in which your position has been weakened by the EU is that it is now easier for foreign authorities to enforce their judgments elsewhere in the EU. Luckily, however, we have not reached the stage, and hopefully will not, when the EU extends the Italian system to British cities.
Best wishes
Piers Merchant
Assistant to Roger Knapman MEP
So it looks like we are on our own and the EU is powerless to do anythinig about this scam.
To be honest, I feel at the moment that I just might create a website highlighting everything bad about visiting Italy. Childish maybe but it will probably make me feel better and if I could deter just a few visitors maybe I could get one back on the system.
Has anyone ever had issues going back to Italy, even when they didn’t pay yet?
I’m still wondering if this is a scam or not, and until I’m sure, I’m not paying.
On the other side, I need to go to Italy -although a complete other region- just for business.
Does anyone know what the risk might be running into trouble. Even when you don’t rent a car?
Three Italian lawyers were approached on my behalf to clarify Italian Highway Code issues in Florence and Pisa. None would prove a response.
However, here’s information from a helpful Florence Tourist Information Office responding to my query if vehicles carrying disabled passengers can access parking places in the centre of Florence. (I’m also asking Pisa Tourism office the same question). I’ve abbreviated the reply as it also contains much more information about facilities for the disabled.
ACCESSIBILITY TO FLORENCE FOR THE DISABLED
HOW TO MOVE:
you have to contact S.A.S. to receive the permission for the access in Via Panzani, the telephone number is 055 374277
PARKING: The entrance through the electronic city control system in the city centre (Z.T.L.) for private cars is allowed calling Consulta Invalidi (ph. +39 055 3215145 during the weekdays from 9.00 to 19.00) some days before, the same days of arrival or within 19.00 of the working following day.
Please also call Unione Italiana Ciechi (ph. +39 055 580319 – Mon and Fri from 15.00 to 18.00 and Tue. , Thu. and Sat. from 09.00 to 12.00 – Wen. closed – or http://www.uiciechi.it/toscana/firenze or send an e-mail to uicfi@uiciechi.it) except Saturdays and holidays, before or two working days after the entrance in the city centre.
A few places reserved for the disabled are available in each car park (indicated with yellow lines and the special sign board). Please select your car park in the list of the website http://www.firenzeparcheggi.it or contact Firenze Parcheggi, phone number +39 055 503021.
This is no scam…. I have received these letters (look for GRAIT BRITIAN) in the commentary… anyway – there is no way that they could know where I was driving, at what time, on what date – and have a photo to prove it, that appears on a local authority website.
I’d love to think it was, but it ain’t…..
Sorry – but the odd’s are that if your photo is on the website, then it is your offence and you’re due…..
If you have 1 offence, then you should just pay, if you have more than 1 (in a short space of time) then it is worth contacting them and offering to pay once……..
Hi Peter,
I think that if it is a scam, it is very well organised. Trouble is, some, but by no means all Italians are rather good at setting up schemes and fiddles which Machiavelli would have been proud of.
Yes, it would have been nigh on impossible for them to have known where you where going and when – but all they need is the photograph, which is followed up by contacting the hire company to establish that a foreign driver was in the car at the time. You would then be considered as potentially easy meat.
OK, the above is nothing more than mere supposition – but it is not beyond the realms of possibility, knowing Italy.
I think it is the combination of the time it takes to receive the fines, plus the bad English, which has many people here thinking the Pisa situation is a scam.
I’m not saying it is or it is not, but recent events concerning criminally modified traffic cameras have made me suspicious. And why is it that many who get caught, get caught on film in Pisa.
Thanks for the suggestion regarding trying reduce multiple fines to one – that is useful.
I imagine you have seen this post of mine:
http://www.blogfromitaly.com/italian-traffic-light-scams/
Thanks for commenting.
All the best,
Alex
I too got a Pisa fine. Outside 360 days. not paying. Spoke to lawyer friend, he said don’t pay. Don’t pay. I will go back to Italy and won’t skip a heartbeat, they are good at style not paperwork.
P.S. If I get sent to an Italian jail I’ll send an e-mail update, tee hee.
Just a thought – yes, it is impossible for them to know where anyone was going. Apart from a hotel within the restricted area, is there anywhere else someone could be going legitimately? Somewhere that someone in a hired car could be going to? If so, the “authorities” would have a heck of a job proving otherwise. If so we could all have been heading somewhere in the restricted area for a legitimate reason! Would it not be a violation of our privacy and our human rights if we were forced to divulge exactly where any of us were heading?
The following information has been obtained from the Pisa and Rome Tourism web sites. There’s no information about how disabled persons can access the historic centre of Rome. However, the atac site has an English version and email address for queries. Moral seems seems to be “check before you visit” !
PISA
http://www.pisaturismo.it/site/trasporti.asp
Transport
Access to the limited traffic zone (ZTL) is controlled by cameras, and all infringers are identified and fined. Disabled persons can obtain a temporary ZTL permit by dialling the freephone number 800-086540.
ROME
http://www.romaturismo.it/v2/romatiaccoglie/en/parcheggi.html
Car Parking
Non-resident cars are not allowed to drive in the historical center. If you are bringing a car to Rome, we recommend that you park it in the Termini or Vatican area and use public transportation (or you own two feet) to explore the historical center.
Traffic Rules
Unless you are a resident or you are granted a special permission you are not allowed to drive to downtown Rome, Monday through Friday from 6.30 to 18.00, Saturday from 14.00 to 18.00 and at night Friday and Saturday from 11.00pm to 3.00am.
All 22 streets accessing the so-called “Limited Traffic Zone” have been equipped with electronic access detection devices, which are able to detect and record illegal access of vehicles. This electronic access detection system “reads” the plate numbers of vehicles illegally accessing the Zone and the vehicle owners will receive a fine at home.
All tourists wishing to drive to downtown hotels by their private car should first contact the hotel management. Upon arrival the hotel has to send a fax containing numberplate and days of stay to ATAC fax 0039 06 57 11 82 59 to avoid the fine.
For further information, please visit http://www.atac.roma.it or call the Information Center at the number 06 57 118 333 (Monday through Friday from 8.00 to 18.00, Saturday from 14.00 to 18.00).
@Diane – good points, but… it is not only tourists who hire cars in Italy, so not everyone would be heading for hotels. And, knowing Italy, everyone would use this excuse. This is why you have to insist that city centre hotels tell the traffic police.
Actually, Italian hotels are duty bound to tell the ‘normal’ police that someone is staying, but the ‘normal’ police are not the same bunch as the municipal police who manage the ZTL – and the two never talk. Communication between between such organisations is likely to be virtually non-existent, otherwise hotel booking names could be checked against hire car names and these people could be excluded from being fined. This would be the simple way, but Italy does not like simple ways!
As for the human rights thing, you may have a point and Italy’s privacy laws could come into play too. I think a clever Italian lawyer could present a strong argument against this type of fine system, if paid enough!
@Persecuted Florence & Pisa Tourists – thanks for all the info. Should be useful. I’ll think about adding it somewhere, but there is already too much in the original post at the top of this ‘mountain’ of comments!
All the best to both of you,
Alex
Hi all,
My name is Juliette and I am French. I was on the web trying to find some information on how I can manage to pay the fine of 113 euros I have received from Pisa.
I would like to inform you that I have found on internet many discussions about this subject on French Website.
I am writing this e-mail because I agree to pay for this “restricted area” stuff but I still don’t understand how I can pay.
I am not really confident in sending a cheque to “them”, But my bank requires the address of the other bank to make the transfer and I don’t have it.
How did you manage to pay them?
Thanks
Hi Juliette,
This should be the address and IBAN code you should be able to use to pay the fine (from a comments above on September 13th 2008):
CASSA DI RISPARMIO LUCCA PISA LIVORNO
AGENZIA 1- CORSO ITALIA 4-56125 PISA
Account number: IBAN IT 50 B 06200 000000235970
Remember to keep the payment receipt.
Hope that helps,
Au revoir,
Alex
Well, on the letter I have received it’s not the same IBAN number it’s:
IBAN IT 28 0760114000000059900076
BIC (swift code) BPPIITRRXXX
But maybe the issue comes from my bank because I thought the IBAN numer was enough…
Merci, however
De rien Juliette!
Now:
The BIC code BPPIITRRXXX is for:
POSTE ITALIANE Rome S.P.A. BPPIITRRXXX ROMA
From this site:
http://www.swift.com/biconline/
It’s for the Italian post office which is based in Rome. The Italian post office is also a bank.
Can you check the IBAN please? It does not appear to be correct. Maybe a zero is missing. These codes are confusing!
You could have a go at checking it yourself – try ‘IBAN checker’ on Google or the same in French on Google.fr
Some IBAN checking services will give you the name and address of the bank concerned.
à bientôt,
Alex
Yes you are right,
I have forgotten the “Z” on the IBAN code, which is :
IT 28 Z 0760114000000059900076
Now I can pay
A bientôt (but not in Pisa)
Juliette
Hi, I am going to Itlay early next year to Milan with the my company I work woodFX for to carry out a Carpentry & Joinery contract for 6 weeks.
As I will be driving the works van around I am just checking out the rules for driving abroad in Italy.
Just been reading the info up here and I am a bit worried about the fines they seem to hand out.
Any tips would be appreciated.
Some useful info here, Thanks
Hi, I just received a fine for driving in a restricted zone in Pisa from October 2007. For some reason the letter was sent non-registered to the wrong address (33 instead of 23) to my address in Canada. It is quite a coincidence that I actually received it because I moved from that address in the almost 1 year it took for them to send it. As with many tourists I was not aware of the restricted zones during my vacation. Is it safe to assume that I cannot be expected to pay for a fine that was sent to the wrong address? Thanks for your help.
Hi Joiner,
Actually I’ve written a couple of other posts which you might find useful:
Driving in Northern Italy
http://www.blogfromitaly.com/driving-in-northern-italy/
And Speed Cameras in Italy
http://www.blogfromitaly.com/speed-cameras-in-italy/
- if you scroll down you’ll find details of Italian speed limits in both Kmh and mph too – which could be useful.
In general you do need to keep your wits about you. And watch out for drivers not anticipating actions, and not bothering with direction indicators.
Accelerate briskly away from traffic lights, or you will be beeped. Italians are impatient when at the wheel, although they have slightly more patience up here in the north. Do not use your mobile when driving, even if many Italians do.
Wear a seat belt, although again not all Italians bother – but you will be fined if stopped.
Other things to watch out for are police ‘check points’ which occur from time to time and are manned by sub-machine gun toting cops.
Always keep all documents: driving licence, passport, insurance certificate and log book with you while driving – but never leave them in your van. And do not leave anything of value – gps system for example in your van. These are nicked quite frequently even when vans are left parked for short periods.
As for parking – it is not always easy to find spots here, and when you do, watch out for residents only parking – yellow lines on the road – sorry I said blue – I was wrong (Thanks to fellow Milan resident Andy for correcting me). The areas with blue lines are where you need to pay to park.
Within the Cerchia dei Bastioni (see my post on the Ecopass zone) area of Milan residents with a pass can park for free in areas with blue lines after 7 in the evening.
White lines indicate free parking.
You can park in the blue lined areas with a ‘gratta e sosta’ card, which you can buy from bar/tobacconists. I think the instructions are in English, or you don’t have to buy a card and can pay via a text from your mobile. You need to register for this service here: http://sostamilanosms.atm-mi.it/SostaMilanoSMS/IWeb/Home.aspx
Info is all in Italian alas. Probably simpler to just by the gratta e sosta – rub and park cards.
You may have to watch out for the Ecopass area of central Milan. You can buy Ecopasses from bar/tobacconists or pay by credit card via an online system.
If you do not pay you will be fined.
I’ll write a little more when it comes to mind.
Hope that helps, and feel free to ask questions.
Oh and you might like the 442 pub, which shows football matches and other sport and is run by some great people who speak English!
http://www.blogfromitaly.com/four-four-two/
Cheers,
Alex
Hi Thomas,
So you moved house did you? Clever, if potentially expensive way of avoiding paying Pisa fines
Seeing as they do not know where you live, so to speak, and even though you should always be a good citizen and pay fines, if they get fine notification letters returned with ‘no longer at this address’ on them, then I imagine the matter will end there. I doubt whether they will be sending out someone to Canada, to the wrong address, to hunt you down!
And as it was a non-registered letter sent to the wrong address, then that also means you really had no way of knowing you got a fine.
In the circumstances, I would probably, I stress ‘probably’, just throw the letter in the bin.
Up to you whether you pay or not. Of course I would pay, but I am not you…
All the best,
Alex
Hey Alex,
What part of Milan do you live in? LOL. In our area the YELLOW lines are for resident parking and the blue lines are where you need the ‘gratta e sosta’ card – and the times of operation (i.e. when you should pay) will be on a sign in that particular ‘block’. So, for instance, many blue lined areas may be fine for parking free overnight (as they are in my area) and you only have to start paying from, say, 8 a.m. Don’t ever park in the yellow lined areas – you can be towed away to the pound and, from what I understand, that can be very expensive.
Big thanks Andy – you are right – I was getting my yellows and blues mixed up!
I’ve corrected the comment above and credited you for pointing out the error of my ways.
We’ve got lots of blue lines near us and they always seem to be occupied by residents throughout the day! But no excuse.
Well done for the sharp eyes and for reading.
Cheers,
Alex
Some final information from me on fines… I wrote to my MP in early September about the issue of UK motorists being fined by Italian police. The new Minister for Europe, Caroline Flint replied with what I thought was a helpful letter and I have quoted from her reply.
“The Home Office has advised that the EU Mutual Recognition of Financial Penalties Framework Decision, part of the Criminal Justice Act 2008, will, once implemented, allow financial penalties imposed in one EU Member State to be transferred and enforced in another.”
“As we have received so many enquiries about this matter, we have added some information to our travel advice for Italy on our website http://www.fco.gov.uk) to warn travellers of the restricted traffic zones and the possibility of receiving a fine if the restricted zone is entered without an exemption pass. This will hopefully forewarn tourists to Italy and prevent further fines.”
We’ve not long returned from a holiday in Italy and as well as driving, we also used the train to visit Florence. There were frequent services, ran on time, were clean and cost very little. I therefore recommend using the train to visit Florence.
A slight sting in the tail is that yesterday I received an invoice from Sixt car hire for “airport surcharges and administration fee”. Not sure that that’s about so it’s back to dealing with another bill from our Italian holiday!
Arrivederci!
Hi PFPT,
Thanks for this.
It seems as though the only real solution to Pisa et al, is ‘forewarned is forearmed’ or even better err on the side of caution and take the train, as you suggest.
When this mouthful, the EU Mutual Recognition of Financial Penalties Framework Decision, comes into play there will be no escape!
Oh the joys of technology!
Cheers!
Alex
I received 2 Pisa fines 6 minutes apart (restricted zone)from june 07, in August 08. Outside 12 months from offence. I have been advised i don’t need to pay if beyond 12 months, is this your understanding?
jr, I may be wrong but I think the actual time the clock starts ticking is from when the authorities receive your details. This would be the instant that the hire car company (if you did it that way)gave up your details to them. I believe that the law for Italian nations is 6 months though. When is the notification dated, I think that is the important point.
From reading around on all this the people who issue these fines are basically traffic wardens (albeit with loaded pistols!). There are several kinds of police in Italy and these are just one.
Hello, its me again,
I have also received the same letter as Persecuted Florence & Pisa Tourists. I guess this is the end of the line.
Never returning to PISA and very apprehensive about returning to Italy at all to be honest in fear that i might accrue more of these fines.
Yes i should have been more aware but when driving down a one way street with no where to go it sticks of a cash cow.
Of course it is a scam. The scam starts as soon as you get there, 2 sip espressos for 5 bucks etc and it does not stop even when you return. It is a scam that pertains to foreigners only, because we are suckers that would pay it for the fear of getting point on our US and CANADIAN licences. I clearly cannot remember driving anywhere where I could not see any Italians driving around me. We should countersue them for unlit dangerous roads, if it is a restricted area I want to know why is it restricted, what kind of f**king danger it represents and I was not warned about it before being able to enter. They will not see a dollar from me, I wish they will send a follow up letter so I can take it to the Canadian Pat Foran to broadcast the thing on the National TV and start the International Protest. They are making fools of us. As if fighting their f**king wars was not enough. PLEASE DO NOT GIVE AND PAY THE SCAM BECAUSE YOU ENCOURGE THEM FURTHER. IT WILL HAVE TO “DRY OUT” if they run out of money. Interestingly enough I have not received any fines from Austria or Germany or Slovenia or Croatia, just Italy. I have to say I suspect that some eager British EX pats are helping to translate the scam. If need be we will get pro bono lawyers to fight for us. F**k them! DO NOT PAY!!!!
Oh yes how could have I forgotten this. On my card a few months prior to receiving the fine I noticed a charge form my car rental company which said “security measures charge.” As a real sucker and being busy I did not even question. Now I know what it was. Just the fact that they were asked by the Italians to comply and give info on my home details. As far as I understand all of us have differnt kind of expalanation for our charges as well as DIFFERENT PRICING for our fines.That is ilegal. If we commited the same crime the same rules apply. I feel like an idiot. I WILL NEVER EVER KEEP THE SAME CARD NUMBER LONGER THAN A DAY AFTER RETURNING FROM EUROPE. Let them FIND me to collect my money and see how far they get before their EUROPEAN MUNICIPAL OUTSOURCING goes buncrupt. I so can smell Brits involved in this….
S T you are so right! There are just so many of us from UK, America, Canada, Europe etc so angry about this scam that I think we should all collectively sue/countersue. How could they ever stand up against such a large number. Bring it on!
Go for it!
“Interestingly enough I have not received any fines from Austria or Germany or Slovenia or Croatia, just Italy.”
Yes, S T, that is interesting, but not a great surprise for someone who lives in Italy.
Class actions are now possible in Italy too. Look here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_action#Italy
You would need a good lawyer though, if you cannot attract the attention of an Italian consumer association. I do know a good firm of lawyers here in Milan, and they speak English too.
Not sure on what grounds you could bring a case though.
In the meantime, why not try:
“Canadian Pat Foran”, and ask him “to broadcast the thing on the National TV”
All the best,
Alex
I received two fines on the same day about a half hour apart. Presumably I was fined both going to my hotel to drop off my luggage as well as departing my hotel to return the rental to the rental car company.
Apparently I was suppose to have told the hotel clerk about my car and they would have notified the authorities to waive any fines for driving in a limited access zone. I did not. They were kind enough to send me a letter with a copy of my hotel registration (in Italian, which is good) to help me with disputing these fines.
I’m at the point where I must fill out the fine dispute form, however, I cannot easily translate it. I am worred that some silly mispelled, or incomplete blank area on the form will result in denial of my rightful claim to dispute these fines. Does anyone know of an online example of this dispute form translated into English?
I am tempted to not pay this fine but I’m not sure what could happen in the future. Will I be denied entry to Europe, let’s say, Switzerland or Amsterdam, if I don’t pay the fine from Florence, Italy? How long would I have to wait to enter Italy again? I’m pretty sure I won’t rent a car in Italy again.
Alex, great blog!
Add me to the list of Pisa violators of “circulating in a traffic zone without authorisation”. There are many similarities to the stories on this site but there are some differences also. My notification came by way of non registered postal mail, but unlike most of the others, it looks very official. It came from the “Municipality Of Pisa, Municipal Police Station”. My fee seems to be slightly higher than most at 115 euros which will go to 187.50 E in 60 days. Perhaps I have to pay a little more for the official looking version. I did not notice any charges for administrative fees from the rental car company. The date and time coincide with when I was in Pisa, but like most of the others, had no idea I was in a restricted zone. Navigating to the site that contained the picture of the back of my rental car was a bit tricky but the information on this site helped me find it. Again it only showed the back of the car but stated it was on “3 Via Roma” which I believe is near the leaning tower. The violation was on May 5, 2007 and I just received the notice on Nov 14, 2008. I will probably pay the fine, but I am not happy about how difficult it is to do. I can’t understand why they would not accept credit cards in this day and age unless of course they are not legitimate. I would be happy to send a copy of the “Infringements of the Italian Highway Code” and a scan of the violation picture if you provide me with an e-mail address to send it to.
Joe
@ Paul – I would like to see the dispute form!
@ Joe – Glad you like the blog!
Sorry to hear about yet more fines – it never seems to end.
If you would like to send me the documents, then please do – send it to :
contact@blogfromitaly.com(email address has been munged!)
Thanks,
Alex
Hi,
It seems that I´m another victim of the Italian traffic mafia. In summer 2007 me (Austrian) and my girlfriend spent two weeks in the North of Italy driving around in a rented car. Some months later we got informed by our car rental company that violations of “circulating in a traffic zone without authorisationt” in Florence and Milano, so they took €50 respetively €60 from my credit card. Now I received another letter from the Municipality Of Pisa accusing also accusing me of a traffic zone issue in Pisa. I´ve to pay 115 euros which will go up to 187.50 euros after 60 days.
However, I read in this and other blogs before that the official delay for the fine to be legal is 360 days after the authority gets your contact details from the car company. I have written evidence (i.e. a letter from my car rental company saying they charge me 12 euros admin fees) that the car company informed the authotities on October 5 2007. My letter from the Municipality Of Pisa dates from November 10 2008 (i.e. more than 360 days).
Do I have to pay now or would this make the fine really illegal? (Guess this could also be interesting for Joe)
Any kind of help would be appreciated.
Regards,
Rich
Alex – I have never received the registered post letter. Surely I should have done to make it legal?
I really, really feel that no-one should pay. If we do they will continue with this very unfair “scam”. If people refuse to pay then they might realise that it is going to more bother than it is worth.
Can all those of us who have been caught (and infuriated, not to mention the stress caused) unite and fight these brutes through the courts?
The stress is just hell.
I’ve just read some of the entries and I agree with Ross 19 April 07, I’m seriously beginning to believe this may be a scam between the hire car companies and the local municipality. Our hire car was also from Hertz and we have so far received 3 fines – now over 18 months since we were in Italy.
By the way, my fines comes from Florence, not Pisa.
I’m not sure how to get you the form…I’ll look at the website in greater depth to find an email address. The dispute form I downloaded was from the website indicated on the fine/sanction form. After inputing the proper codes and password I could access my fine information, view the picture of my rental car in the restricted zone, and also download the dispute form.
I have good news (for me). After trying to translate the dispute form I finally relented and called the English phone number on my fine(s) and spoke with a nice lady named Sylvia Martini. I explained that I had been in Florence and had driven to the hotel in order to check in. I didn’t intend to drive around Florence because it’s frankly difficult. After checking in I returned the vehicle to the airport rental office. I have in my possession a letter from the hotel indicating my date of check in and dates of stay. The letter also indicates that I drove in the restricted zone in order to access the hotel. The letter goes on to request on my behalf that the fine be dropped because they should have sent my automotive/rental information to the authorities on the date of check-in in order to have any potential fine waived. Long story short, I emailed this letter to Ms. Martini and a few days later received an email indicating my fines had been waived.
I suspect unless you have a legitimate reason to drive a vehicle in the restricted area (e.g. driving to your hotel) you will pay the fine. I came upon this when I lived in Mexico City many years ago. On certain days you could drive in the city with the proper sticker on the windshield and if you didn’t have the sticker, you could receive a fine. I’m pleased to know I no longer have to worry about what would happen if I chose not to pay this fine from Italy. I simply do not know those ramifications, especially if you live on the European continent.
- Paul Stone
USA
I thought I was alone here, till I found this blog. My mom and I traveled to Italy in March 2007. We rented a car from Thrifty in Florence, but upon arriving at the car rental co. they didnt have our car and sent us across the street to a small car rental dealer. We drove to Pisa and through Tuscany, and back to Florence.
Earlier this year I receieved a speeding ticket from Italy with the same “the road conditions were such that the offender could not be stopped without causing danger to other vehicles” as Trond wrote on this blog back in January ’07. The ticket was a certified letter – which I’ve never received before!…was kinda excited/nervous till I found out what it was, then I was pissed. The ticket was for 173 Euros which I paid by bank transfer, which the bank tellers had a heck of a time figuring out how to do, since the ticket was in Italian. And the ticket said it was from Comune di Riomaggiore – Polizia Municipale.
I paid it as I knew I’d like to return to Italy one day. (The whole time my mom saying that it was the maffia.)
I thought it was all over and done with till I received another violation in the mail yesterday – this one was not a registered letter. But they did throw .85 euros into my fine for postage.
My fine is for 108.04 euros + postage and it says that the “locality of verification” was PZA DELL ‘UNITA” ITLAIANA-VIA PANZANI — does anyone know where this is???
The violation date is 2007-03-22 …. now I know that things move slowly in Italy, as I’ve read in the above blogs, but this was a crazy long time ago!!
The info listed for if I wanted to do a bank transfer is:
Bank: Cassa di Risparmio di Firenze
Beneficiary: Corpo di Polizia Municipale di Firenze N.O. Verbali e Notifiche
Account #: 77/00
Bank Codes: IT60P0616002832000000077C00 SWIFT CRFIIT3F
I will be paying this through their website http://www.emo.nivi.it – which I’ve already logged into, as they give you a user name and password, and there is also a photo of the rear of the car I was driving..with the date. Which really could have been placed on there digitally, if this were a scam. It’s not like they show my face in the car driving with the violation sign in view as well! But I’m paying it cause I will be returning to Italy in March and I’d like to not be contacted by the police. I also wanted to rent a car again, but after all this, I’m not too sure.
Just wanted to post my sucky experience….
Okay, so I discovered where this was …PZA DELL ‘UNITA” ITLAIANA-VIA PANZANI.
It’s in Florence, and apparently I drove through it while trying to return the rental car, with the agency being on a one way street. I remember having to drive around in a huge cirlce in order to get down the street the car rental place was on. So I can now see how I didnt see a sign about a “road reserved for other vehicles”, when i was worried about not driving down one of the numerous one ways in the area!
I’m still pissed…
More stories, more fines. It’s difficult to know what to do about this, aside from saying don’t drive in Italy.
Some form of park and ride scheme would be useful – maybe an Italian entrepreneur reading this could come up with something.
Thing is, as far as I can understand, these cameras are designed to catch naughty Italians more than tourists. I’d love to know just how many tourists drive around Italy every year.
Perhaps some form of pass could be paid upon renting a car which would automatically inform the municipal authorities solely for those on vacation in Italy. Need more info before proposing this as a realistic solution though.
Sorry to hear about yet more people being caught out.
Kind regards to one and all,
Alex
Alex – re my previous email, as I have never received a registered letter (and the 60 days have now passed) are we still liable to pay? We have heard nothing more.
Hi Diane,
Have another look at the Time Limits section in the main post on the surface of this ocean of comments, and see if you are out of the woods.
I tend to think you are not, in view of the fact that they know you were the driver, in which case there is the 360 days which the authorities have to send out the official fine.
If you do not pay and they try to up the fine, then you could argue that seeing as you had received no official notification – ie registered letter you did not think you should pay on the grounds that the initial fine notification could have been from anyone.
Hope that helps.
Let us know how you get on.
Regards,
Alex
Does anyone have any experience of what happens if you go back to Italy with a fine outstanding?
I received two tickets in Florence in July 07, received first notice in Feb 08 and second notice in September 08. Both letters were regular mail, not certified or registered with return receipt. I received a charge from Avis within a month after the trip so I assume that was for providing info to the police, though Avis never notified me of this.
Regarding complications going back to Italy at least as far as customs is concerned: for this to be a problem, Italian customs would need to be in possession of a database of traffic citation scofflaws. They would enter your name from your passport and see what pops up on their computer screen. This database would require regular updates from every local municipality that issues tickets. My experience at Italian customs is they consult no computer screens…they just languidly glance at your passport, wave listlessly toward the exit and go back to their text messaging.
What I’m saying is unless a car rental agency has paid something for you that they’d still like to collect and you try to rent a car at that same agency, there shouldn’t be any problem. If you get pulled over by the police somewhere, say, Rome, and you have outstanding tickets in Florence, there may or may not be some unpleasantness depending on how well these local police departments communicate with each other or to the extent all unpaid fines are sent to a national tracking system.
I would welcome factual information on this subject from someone who knows, as all I possess is anecdotal information from people who received these tickets and have traveled back to Italy with no problems.
So what did you do Loudo? Did you pay the fine that was posted to you?
Ash, sorry for the delayed reply…I haven’t checked this blog for awhile.
The answer: I’ve done nothing, and have heard nothing further from the Florence bill collectors. In another week it’ll be two years since the original infractions (my two year anniversary….yay!)
Here is my theory, and nothing I’ve read has disabused me of it: They send a couple of threatening letters, and the kind of US citizens who travel to Italy are, demographically speaking, the kind of folks who tend to pay their traffic tickets because thumbing your nose at the authorities in this country sooner or later results in a bad scene. So…many people pay, and the others don’t. Since many people pay, the Italian authorities are happy enough (especially considering the outrageous $ amount of the fines.) It’s just a dirty little secret that they don’t go after the non-payers after the second dunning letter. Too much hassle and expense, compared with the easy money coming in with just an official looking letter or two sent by regular mail.
Hi Alex
Further to my comments early Sept when I received my ‘Pisa’ fine, I followed the advice given to Ray (Sept 16th) from the Pisa dept and simply sent a stirling cheque made payable to Police dept for the fine at current exchange rate (then about £89)in mid Oct. It has just been banked – mid Nov. I was unable to send recorded delivery as the letter was only tracked until it left Britain, but it worked for us.
Good luck everyone
Maureen
Dear Alex,
Every tourist coming to Italy on vacation with a car or renting a car must do the following.
1. Buy a GPS system in their European nation of residence or once you arrive in Italy, buy one with speed trap service activated. You can buy a TOM TOM for 99 Euros at a Media World store in most cities for example. This way every crazy fixed speed trap can restricted zone will be avoided. Then when you leave Italy rent it to a friend for 30 Euros and after three friends travel to Italy following your visist, you will pay for your Italian GPS by renting it out to others. In fact, I feel all rental companies in Italy and Europe should have a GPS with speed trap service activated already in the car for their clients. However, I am sure this won’t happen soon in Italy.
2.There are also now traffic lights in Italy with T-Red systems and these are nasty and are not on any GPS system to my knowledge. It’s all about money and if there is a second that you pass under one of these traffic lights in Italy you will receive a fine if the light even turns yellow after you crossed the line. Italian citizens are fighting these, but you must be very careful in some cities where these are used to always drive 50 Km/hour and to be prepared to stop quickly if a traffic light changes as you are just about to cross the white line of the intersection.
3. Tuscany is one of the most tourist laden regions and as such they have the greatest number of speed traps. Beware, there are mobile traps, where the police are hidden in bushes, driveways of private homes, etc. I have often seen these without any notice on country roads outside of towns and cities where you should be able to drive 90km/hour, but the limit is 50-70km/hour and many people are “taxed” by the modern ceasars of our day with this dispicable systems, especially unsuspecting tourists.
It is aweful, but it will never change and only get worse because of the desire to make money by every municipality. One city in Northern Italy just reported that in their city of 200,000 peole and hundreds of thousands of tourists a year, they received over 8 million in fines in the past 12 months! Imagine how much “tax money” is obtained by a city like Florence with close to 1 million in the metro area with millions of tourists that visit every year. Florence has probably at least 30 speed traps and also ZTL areas in the city limits and over 100 in their provincal area.
Suggested Action for all those who have been affected by the dispicable treatment tourist experience who are trying to obey the law while driving in Italy on their vacations.
Send a personal typed letter to your nation of residence’s Italian Tourist Board Offices. Be sure to get the correct name of the person in charge and send a second letter by post to the Italian Embassy in your nation as well again locating the right person.
Imagine if just a few of the 100s of thousands of tourists to Italy who are fined each year did this, the Italian government would have to come up with a solution to keep their tourists happy and returning to Italy. One solution might be to make their signs clearer for international visitors and to require all rental cars to have GPS systems with all major languages installed that indicate where all speed radar is located as well as restricted zones, etc. This should greatly help visitors and would benefit Italy’s image abroad in the tourist sector. However, the Italian municipalities will lose a great deal of money they are bringing in this way, so it is hard to say whether they will make the right choice or slowly lose more tourists each year who choose to go elsewhere after being treated this way as so many on this forum. Let’s hope the Italian leaders in charge will do the right thing, since Italy is such a great country to visit. Ciao
Hello,
I went to Italy on December 07 to Jan 08. During the first quarter, I was charged to my credit card about 300 euros for traffic fines. I challenged the expense and lost.
On June 08 I received 4 fines, for Florence, for the amount of 94.85 Euros Each.
On Jan 5 I received 2 fines, for Pisa, for the amount of 115 Euros Each (and threatening to increase if I don’t pay timely)
The total amount is 609.4 Euros. Which is 10,359 pesos… This is insane!!!
I didn’t pay the original ones, because I didn’t have the money, now I am in a little better position, but I don’t want to pay anything that is a scam. How do I know?
Why does Italy treat so bad the tourists?
Thanks,
Just posting an interesting link about a related topic that has been mentioned before. However, it does make one wonder if there is anything underhand about our experiences in Pisa and elsewhere. I for one have crossed Italy off my list of holiday destinations.
Anyway, the article and link:
=================================================
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/smart-traffic-lights-rigged-to-trap-drivers-1521436.html
Smart traffic lights rigged to trap drivers
By Peter Popham in Rome
Friday, 30 January 2009
If driving in Italy was not already exasperating enough, what was hailed as the introduction of the world’s first smart traffic lights has, in fact, made life even more miserable for more than million of the nation’s drivers.
Pioneering technology that could automatically detect motorists who jumped red lights and committed other violations, including speeding and illegal turns, was rigged, it is claimed, to trap the innocent and in the process rake in fines of €150 (£130) a time.
I received a stupid letter from stupid Hertz that they received a VERBALE FINE ON LINE that they will charge me in 18 euros so they can sand my information for Italian authority. So, do you think that Italy could sand a fine to Brazil?
Hertz is not going to see any euro from me, that’s all I know…
I found this article helpful and very reassuring after I received TWO tickets in one day because of Pisa’s restricted traffic zones. I received the tickets in English 10 months after I had exited Italy. I am facing this dilemma: To pay or not to pay. I understand the frustration of having a passport flagged if I ever returned to Italy. I also understand that the police department should be able to get a credit card number from the rental company–as of yet, I have not noticed any charges on my credit card related to processing fees etc. BUT here is the catch. The ticket is in my husband’s name and his name is spelled incorrectly. Can they tag the passport of someone for whom they don’t even have the correct name? Based on the ticket they have no more detailed information (no passport number, no credit card number, etc.). Do you think they have this information?
Has anyone ever tried to appeal the tickets in writing? I am tempted to send a long wordy letter that will give the responder a complete headache and wash my hands of it.
-M
Marie and others, these are just my comments that follow but based on my experience and the helpful opinions found in this thread I would have thought that you have a good case for not paying.
Firstly, did they send the notice by registered mail? If not you can simply claim it was not received – how could they prove otherwise?
Secondly, if the letter has the wrong name that it is not for you so can be ignored.
Thirdly, in reality would the authorities really be interested in catching a tourist with an outstanding motoring infringement when murderers, drug runners, terrorists etc are far more important?
Another point is what happened to me was the car hire company deducted a sum from my CC many months after I left. I disputed this with the CC company and they (the CC people) agreed to put the money back. Never heard from them or the car hire people again. I cancelled the card to make sure as well. Then much later I receive via ordinary post the notice and hence discovered this very useful website. There are several others on here who have stated they will not pay and if they cannot prove that you received a notification then what can they do?
I must stress that these are my own personal opinions it is up to you what you think is best.
Good luck!
Thanks for jumping in Ian.
For what it’s worth, I think your advice to Marie is sound.
If the notification is not in order, then there is little the Pisa authorities can do – although to be fair to them, and as I’ve only recently discovered, Pisa is one of the few places in Italy that has put in systems allowing it to send out fines internationally – in other ZTLs foreign drivers are just ignored – simply because the local authorities/police forces involved do not have the systems in place to send notifications out of Italy.
There is a remote chance that your passport may be flagged, but knowing how disconnected Italy is, I doubt this will happen. Italy has three major police forces: the carabinieri – which do not bother too much with traffic offences, the polizia – which do bother with driving offences, and the very local municipal police – which deal with minor offences such as parking and these ZTLs. For a passport to be flagged, the municipal police would need to inform the Polizia – who also check passports when you enter Italy. However, I very much doubt whether this is happening, and it will not happen for a good time yet. Italy does not even have an e-gov system yet, and the good old boys in power simply do not understand technology.
Put very simply, if you receive a registered notification – then you should really pay – if you do not – then it could potentially be a scam – and I believe you are within your rights to treat it as such and ignore the things. Indeed, the credit card companies should not really be deducting sums until a formal registered notification has been received by those who committed any alleged offence. Even if you do receive a fine, you can try to dispute it – and slowly but surely, and again to their credit, the Pisa people seem to be gearing up for dealing with appeals received in languages other than Italian. At the end of the day though, the admin costs must be exceeding fine generated income – especially when people appeal.
Again – these are my opinions, and I am not a lawyer, nor do I claim to be an expert on the subject of the payment of fines received while in a car in Italy. My aim is to inform, and assist, if I can.
As Ian stated – do what you think is best – although reading the post above and the comments may help you make a more informed decision.
Kind regards to both of you,
Alex
Hello to all you fellow bad reckless drivers who like me received a fine for driving in a restricted area in Florence.
I was in Florence in May 2007 and rented a car. In March 2008 the rental company took €50 from my credit card. At the time I believed it was for a speeding fine or parking fine. I didn’t argue with it and happily paid it.
However, I have only now, 23rd February 2009, received a letter in the post from the italian authorities telling me I must pay €118 for driving in a restricted area.
The letter arrived by ordinary post. I intend to ignore this letter and wait and see what happens.
I will not be paying this fine. It is now 19 months later. There is a legal saying in Ireland ‘Justice delayed is justice denied’. I dont need a legal expert to explain that to me. Surely there must be some common legislation throughout the EU.
I have also instructed my credit card company not to authorise any payments to this company without contacting me.
I am also returning to Italy in April 09 but I dont intend on renting a car this time.
I will write again if I hear anymore about this. I dont believe I will.
I know that if a foreign tourist in Ireland incurred a motoring fine like this the Irish authorities would not persue them across Europe. The Irish authorities dont even persue motorists across the borded to Northern Ireland so I douubt very much that the lazy Italians will.
Your fellow bad reckless driver, Alan
I would like to pay the Pisa, Italy “circulating in restricted traffic zone on via Roma” traffic fine of Euro115 by mail from the US, but I do not see an clear address on the notification letter to mail the check. Does anyone know the correct address in Pisa to mail payment? I do not want to use a bank transfer since there is no good way to track it, and I have already cut a check in Euros (at considerable cost here in the US). This kind of traffic violation is indeed frustrating for visitors and will impact future visits to Italy for many people I expect. Thanx for your help….randy
Have a parking fine in a restricted area and circulating in restricted area in Pisa. I initially sent the tickets back with a letter stating that I did not understand what I did wrong. This probably avoided the dreaded high administrative fee from the rental car company because they already had my name and address. My question is this. Has anybody been charged on the rental car credit card for the actual fines incurred? Honestly, how are they going to get the money from anyone in the US or Canada or any country outside of Europe unless they are able to charge back to the rental car credit card? I feel sorry for Europeans as they may have some leverage, but I don’t see what leverage they have outside of Europe? I have read many posts about administrative charges incurred by the rental car companies, but have not read one case of fines actually being paid by the rental car credit card. Any info on this would be greatly appreciated. I would probably pay if It was easy to pay with credit card, but not with exorbitant wire transfer fees. I don’t even know where to go to get a check in Euros.
Hi Earl,
“but have not read one case of fines actually being paid by the rental car credit card. Any info on this would be greatly appreciated.” If I get you, then the rental car company will not try to charge the actual fine(s) against the credit card used for renting the car, but will often charge an administration fee for the time they spend telling the police who the driver of the car at the time of the offences was.
If the rental company did pay the fine directly, then that would give you no time to defend yourself, and you would not be happy! And as sometimes happens here, fines are sent out regarding cars which may have been many miles away from where they were caught on camera. For example, if the rental car company used your credit card info to pay for an offence in Rome, when you where in Naples all the time – you would be pretty cross.
Anyway, as I understand it, rent car agencies are not authorised to do to charge everything and anything to your credit card. Look at the rental contract for details of what they feel they can charge you.
If that does not help, let me know.
Alex
Alex, thank you for the reply. As stated, they already have my name and address, so no administrative fees have been charged to the CC. I have contacted the rental car company and requested info on their rental car contract and the contract fine print. As this was 10 months ago, I have the credit card charge receipt but threw the contract out. So, I don’t have a copy of the rental car agreement. I really don’t see what leverage they have on anyone outside of Europe and that is what I am trying to determine.
Earl, the short answer is that they have no leverage with regard to people outside of Europe. They have to rely on honesty and moral duty.
As I have stated before a few times, there is a remote possibility that the names of those who have not paid fines will be flagged and they may stopped when trying to enter Italy. This does not happen as yet, but one day this may become the norm. Another scenario is that if you stay in the same Italian region in the future then your name may be recognised and you may be visited by the local police. The key word is ‘may’ – again, I am not aware of this actually happening. And, from what I have ascertained, Pisa is one of the few Italian authorities which has systems in place for collecting fines at an international level. This is why Pisa is the Italian city which is mentioned most often in the comments here. I wrote a post on this: http://www.blogfromitaly.com/pisas-misunderstood-leanings/
There are, as far as I know, no international agreements or treaties that concern motoring offences committed by residents while driving abroad.
Within Europe there is talk of making motoring offences enforceable at European level, in that if for example someone from Britain commits an offence in Italy, then the fine for such offence may be collected by motoring authorities in Britain. I do not know if this system has been implemented.
Please note that I am not a lawyer, nor to I make any claim to being an expert on this matter. Any and all advice I may offer is informal and subject to confirmation via proper authorities and/or lawyers.
Best regards,
Alex
I want to take this opportunity on behalf of ALL the readers of this valuable information to THANK YOU wholeheartedly for your many efforts and articles. It has truly been helpful. I know it has helped me a great deal. Thanks again!
This subject has been discussed at length on numerous forums, notably Trip Advisor, and there is a very informative summary here: http://www.bella-toscana.com/traffic_violations_italy.htm Read it and form your own conclusions. That page is updated quite frequently and I look forward to seeing there updates regarding just how far the Italian municipalities will go to collect their money. It’s big money we’re talking about – a milion here, a million there – pretty soon it adds up to be a significant part of their income. Personally, I foresee the use of collection agencies unless a drop-off in tourism can be attributed to fines that total more than the cost of a trans-Atlantic plane ticket.
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Simon
My son hired a car and went to Verona last May (2008). He had been staying in a village in the North teaching English as a foreign language and playing rugby. Due to an injury to his knee he had to return home. A few days ago he received four parking fines by registered post for when he visited Verona. They are for 85 euros each and issued by the same policeman, the times are for 8.45, 8.47, 8.48 and 9.39. This amounts to 340 euros. He is really sick about this as he hadn’t realised that he should not have been parking there. It would be acceptable having to pay one 85 euro fine but four for the same thing within the hour is just ridiculous. Does anyone know what he should do? This would put anyone off going to Italy and hiring a car. He is awaiting an operation on his knee and not working at present and cannot afford 340 euros.
Hi Liz,
My suggestion would be to appeal the fines on the grounds that your son could not walk on account of his knee problem, and so had to park close to where he needed to go. You could send a doctor’s certificate, preferably from an Italian doctor, with the appeal, as this might give it more weight. Might be worth having a go. By the way, were the three fines for the same day?
Another thing to do, but it is more complex, is to check whether the area in which your son left the car has been declassified as a no parking zone. This happens sometimes, but the local police are the last to find out, and, logically, stick a fine on cars parked where they should not be.
And, yes, you have to be very careful where you leave a car nowadays in Italy. Italian local authorities have cottoned on to the fact that fine income is, generally, an easy way of filling coffers.
Good luck, and if you need an Italian lawyer to handle this, I know one or two (but a lawyer may cost more than the fines, and will cost more than the fines if the fines are dropped, unless costs are awarded in your favour),
Best of luck,
Alex
Hi
I went to Florence in Aug 2008. Parked in a spot which looked Ok to me. Even put money into one of those parking meters and displayed inside dash.
I headed off into Florence and spent most of the day there.
When I got back to the car there was a parking ticket…something about restricted zone.
I ignored it.
Anyway in Feb this year I get two sudden charges from SIXT on my credit card for administration charges relating to parking fines and a letter from the Polizia Municipale Commune di Firenze demanding 54 Euros as a fine for VEHICLE PARKED IN A RESIDENTS ONLY PARKING AREA WITHOUT AUTHORISATION. I paid it by credit card via http://www.emo.nivi.it principally because I wanted the buggers off my back.
To my horror and amazement, another one has arrived this week, this time for CIRCULATED ON RAODS RESERVED TO OTHER VEHICLES AND INDICATED BY TRAFFIC SIGNS. It is from same authority in Florence. I logged on and all I get as a picture is the rear of the car and a number plate. It doesnt give me any real clue as to where this was on VIA SENESE. This time the fine id for 101 Euros and again it is from the Commune di Firenze.
I dont believe this. Is this some form of scam? Are Italian police/traffic authorities all bandits?
I called them today on 00 39 055 344 0390 and spoke to a lady who spoke reasonably good English who told me the authorities have 1 year to post thses notoces out and if I ignore it they will set a lawyer onto it and the fine doubles.
Tempted to ignore and tell them to go swivel on a toothpick but I have already paid one and doubtless they will find another photograph of me waiting at a traffic light and invent an offence for that too.
Any advice gratefully received.
Your truly
Xenophobic Anglophile.
Uh oh, Mr Turning Xenophobe,
Sounds as though the Florence mob have cottoned on to this easy money maker. Before only Pisa was far sighted enough to have set up a system to send fines out of Italy. This is not looking good. If someone else writes, I’ll post an update to warn people off another fine hotspot.
Residents parking areas have always been a problem. Mainly because only residents seem to know about them. There will have been signs, probably, but you would not have understood them even if you had spotted the things, I imagine.
As to the other fine, sounds as though you inadvertently found yourself in one of Italy’s infamous ZTL restricted traffic zones. There is only one defence, so far as I know, and I am not certain it will work. This defence, which has been used, successfully, up here in Ecopass infested Milan, is that in main thoroughfares, as I understand it – routes which buses and other public vehicles can use, automatic fines resulting from cameras are not valid. A little man has to fine you instead. At least that is my understanding – I’m not too sure how these ‘main thoroughfares’ are defined, so I have no idea whether this defence would get you off.
If I have time, I’ll look into the Milan situation, and see if it could be applied to Florence – although the Ecopass ‘congestion charge zone’ may not be considered the same as a more, er, normal ‘restricted traffic zone’ or ZTL. Need a lawyer to confirm this really, and I am not one! I could put you in contact with an Italian lawyer, but I have no idea how much his services would cost. Most probably more than the fine, unless you have costs awarded in your favour. If this is a sure fire thing, and costs can be awarded in your favour (I doubt it) then appealing this fine might be worth a go.
Should anyone else wish to chip in, then please feel free.
Alex – An Anglophile in Italy
Hi all,
This is a bit off the topic of traffic related infringements, but I recieved a train fine for 100 euros the other day in Rome. When I got on the train, the ticket booth was closed, and automated ticket machines were out of service, so I couldn’t buy a ticket.
The inspectors didn’t care about this, and fined about 5 of us on the one carriage (letting the other carriages off), and at one point wanted cash (50 euro) on the spot for mine, and my girlfriends fines to become immaterial.
It is very complex to lodge an appeal, even though we were in the right, and was wandering about any rammifications that may come into play later down the track if I don’t pay this rediculous fine? I didn’t give them my passport, only my Australian drivers licence. Will I be let into Italy again? Will they sequester me in the middle of the night, as I lay asleep in Aus?
Any help, comments, would put my mind at ease,
Cheers,
James
Hi James,
Well, your comment is just a wee minor bit off topic, seeing this is all about getting caught out while driving in Italy.
Anyway – you’ve fallen foul of Italy. I can quite believe that all the ticket machines were wonky, and you not knowing the lingo would not have helped matters. Trouble is, this is an excuse which is as old as the hills here, and the inspectors never really know whether the defence is genuine or fake. You were just unlucky and got an unsympathetic inspector. I once got let off by an Italian ticket inspector, and I’ve found them to be pretty OK generally.
As to whether you pay the fine not, up to you. I really have no idea just what lengths they might go to collect the fine, although I don’t imagine you’ll be woken in the middle of the night by the Italian railway equivalent of Delta Force crashing through your bedroom windows after having slid down the ropes strung beneath the official Italian railway long range (you are in Oz) stealth choppers.
There is a possibility that your passport may be flagged, I suppose, but this would surprise me greatly, after all, what you did was not exactly in serious crime territory. However, you never know.
At the end of the day, this is not something I know much about. Might write a post about it – especially if others tell me about similar episodes.
Sorry for not having been of much help.
All the best,
Alex
We’re all in the same corupt boat aren’t we? It was almost a year after our visit to Pisa that we received 2 fines for violating the ZTL. These were captured on the hidden cameras and were 10 minutes apart. Apparently we were following our GPS and went around the wrong block twice.
I have an appeal letter written and ready to go. I am willing to take my lumps and pay the first fine but I want to appeal the second as being essentially the same infraction.
But does anyone really have the facts on the fines being doubled if your appeal is rejected? I don’t see that in the letter we received. That would pretty much quash any attempts to use the system wouldn’t it?
I also find it interesting that the letter states you must appeal in writing, in Italian to either the Prefect of Pisa or the local judge but they do not give you a mailing address to send your appeal to.
Why don’t they just cut through the red tape and have a couple big ruffians extort money from tourists at random????
Steve, it doesn’t matter how much they say your fine will be later if you don’t pay now. As far as I’m concerned, they could say it’d be quintuple the original amount and I still won’t pay. For US residents, they send a couple of dunning letters and then just drop it. EU residents have more to worry about, but I haven’t seen a single US resident state they didn’t pay and after doing so there were consequences of any kind.
Steve
definitely do nto apy the second because this case has been argued in the courts in italy and the second offence withion an hour does not count
Steve
definitely do not apy the second because this case has been argued in the courts in italy re the second offence
Hi again,
Got some information from an Internation Law student the other day who said that (with respect to transport fines – not sure whether about traffic infringements) if you get sent a fine to your home address and you don’t pay the following actions will occur:
- Magnitude of fine increases over time until it reaches a set upper limit
- Once limit is reached fine is handed over to debt collectors
- This doesn’t neccessarily have to be paid but as you are in a debt with someone, this will have an effect on being able to obtain credit in that region (ie. EU if fine was from Italy).
So unless you plan on obtaining credit to buy a house/car etc in the EU then this can be forgotten about – however if you do harbour plans on living in the EU then paying the fine, once recieved in the mail, should be considered.
I will wait until mine comes in the mail.
Cheers
Thanks for this James – useful info.
Much as I have been saying, but in more detail.
If you don’t pay up, but plan to come to Italy, or possibly the EU, and apply for a loan etc, you could face unexpected problems at some time in the future.
Moral of the story is that if you think you might end up in Europe for work or study in the future, it is probably a good idea to pay up.
Best,
Alex
The Florence authorities are really exploiting foreign tourists my fine was 102 euro for the offence of “Moved around a restricted traffic area without authorization” I have no idea when or what this was but it seems execessive to me. If you want to avoid bogus driving fines I suggest you avoid the Florence area!
Alan, I have, after 9 months, received one of these letters, regarding moving in a restricted zone. It was not by registered post and more concerning is the date on the photo / infringement does not match the date I was there ! Did you hear anything after not paying ? I am in some what baffled as to what to do. Also, I have emaled them to contest the date, we were with another family the whole holiday and I assume they can be valid witnesses (and more over, they did not receive a fine and followed us the entire time).
Interested in your views, I have 20 days apparently to pay up
My wife yesterday (29 June 2009) received a fine for 101 Euros for the same thing reported by another correspondent, i.e. “Moved around a restricted traffic area without authorization”. How would one even know?! We were visiting Florence last September and we live in New zealand. The fine is very expensive in New Zealand dollars and definitely over the top. It appears official, so is probably not a scam, but rude on the part of the authorities.
Yesterday I was telling a Chinese student friend of how the Comune Di Firenze (Florence metropolitam authorities) had fined me 103 euro for “MOVED AROUND A RESTRICTED TRAFFIC AREA” He told me that he and a party of 10 Chinese Malasian students from Glasgow University were also fined 70 euro each in Florence because they all bought travel tickets and they were not told and unaware that the tickes needed to be verified.
This is appaling it must be stopped! I’m a coward and paid the fine but I hope someone does take a legal stand against them like Interpol or the FBI !
After a long battle, I have settled the fine and have contacted my local legal and foreign affairs MEP. They did respond and wrote to a number of key people in Italy on this subject. I suggest you all do the same. In the mean time I wrote to nivi credit the following as this really is very unnaceptable.
bla bla…
Anyway I have now made the payment, and will not appeal as no one succeeds, however I have contacted a number of MEP’s in the legal and foreign affairs area and have stated you are hiding behind EU membership to penalise innocent tourists and enforce payment (if you were not an EU member, I would NOT have paid). If a legal case ever arises, and this is deemed excessive, or illegal, under EU case law you will be obliged to refund all fees, charges, and costs.
I will pursue this beyond all comprehension, and as I stated I have cancelled our 2010 holiday to Italy which will cost the country more in lost tourism revenue than this fine will gain them, the fine amount is totally excessive and outrageous.
Hi Jason – keep plugging away.
Although the Italian authorities are within their rights, lots of people are not happy.
Is there anywhere else in Europe where fines are a real problem? I have not heard of anywhere, but perhaps someone else has.
As for the comments being in some odd order, I’m not too sure why this is the case. I’ve had a look around and found that I am not alone in this odd order of comments thing. One remedy seems to be to dig into my database, but that scares me. Last time I did that, my site fell over!
What I might do is to close comments on this post, and add a new post with new comments – which should be in the right order!
Thanks for bringing this to my attention.
Best,
Alex
Note to everyone – the comment order appears to be a bug in the system I use to publish this site.
As far as I know there is no solution as of yet.
Once something comes along, hopefully the comment order will become more logical, as it once was.
Sorry, and thanks for reading, and commenting.
Alex
And why do the posted entries not appear in date order?
Hi,
Just to say that my son paid the fines yesterday and by the time he paid the cost of the bank draft it was about £317. Just for parking in the wrong spot. It is just ridiculous! He has friends in Italy who said they would not pay it but to get a lawyer onto it would have cost even more and he might have ended up having to pay double the amount. If he never wanted to go back to Italy well I suppose he wouldn’t have paid it but he does.
It really would put you off going to the country and I think it is time something was done about it. Had it been one fine for the offence, well that would have been acceptable but four for the same thing is beyond belief! They have some nerve that’s all I can say and makes you wonder if they really want tourists. Does the government know what the polizia are up to – I wonder.
I’m sorry to hear so many people are in the same boat, but glad to hear I am not the only one. I took my family to Florence in December 2007, and have just tonight received a fine for ‘driving along lanes for public transport only’ for 101 euros.
This is ridiculous, in terms of timing (18 months later) and as discussed above, in terms of not allowing any scope for people grappling with the road system of another country, in good faith not intentionally breaking any rules.
I was advised of the restricted traffic areas as soon as I stopped in Florence and immediately went to a parking garage where we paid approx 120 euros to keep the car off the street for a week (doing the right thing).
My wife and I had considered going back to Italy, but probably not driving, but I know now that I will never go back to such an inhospitable place.
Congrats Italy, you have inherited the ‘arrogant’ reputation from the French!
I am still considering whether I will pay, but I wouldn’t count on it.
Good luck to all of you and no doubt those yet to come.
Dale
Hi Dale,
If it’s any consolation, and it probably isn’t, I think Italian fines are similar in level to those in other countries in Europe.
Not understanding road signs does not help, and the Italian propensity for splattering roads with the things does not help either!
Something needs to be done to help foreign drivers, but whether it will is anybody’s guess.
Best regards,
Alex
Dale, under Italian’s own law, they have to issue the fine within a year of the offense. In your case it appears they have failed to do this and thus you have no legal obligation to pay. Suggest you email;
infoemo-en@nivi.it
and
matteo.capitani@nivi.it
Also please please please lobby your MEP. For the UK these are easily found on the gvmnt web site, for other euro countries search on google and you will find them. Email the foreign affairs and legal representaitve.
For the UK S.E this is;
Sharon Bowles MEP
Office of Sharon Bowles MEP, Liberal Democrat
Member of the European Parliament for South East England
Jason.
I also sent this to nivi credit;
I believe you have to send these by recorded delivery.
Anyway I have now made the payment, and will not appeal as no one succeeds, however I have contacted a number of MEP’s in the legal and foreign affairs area and have stated you are hiding behind EU membership to penalise innocent tourists and enforce payment (if you were not an EU member, I would NOT have paid). If a legal case ever arises, and this is deemed excessive, or illegal, under EU case law you will be obliged to refund all fees, charges, and costs.
I will pursue this beyond all comprehension, and as I stated I have cancelled our 2010 holiday to Italy which will cost the country more in lost tourism revenue than this fine will gain them, the fine amount is totally excessive and outrageous.
I got a fine in florence for driving in a restricted zone again it arrived about 9 months after my visit.
However i got fined twice for same offence within half an hour. I went up the same street twice. Now as far as i am aware I need only have paid one of them because there is a law in italy regarding paying for the same offence committed within an hour or some such.
Anyway I agree with the many who say they would avoid italy for holidays because of this type of madfia-esque money raising . Also tourists get overcharged at every turn around there so I might just avoid it – mind you they have a lot of things to see.
It is the same story re, money raising, traffic fines in Prague but they are much. much lower and on the spot usually. Maybe 8 euro or so but now they will probably go up.
Caveat Viator
Thomas, Belfast
I got 2 fines from Pisa for driving in a restricted area. I have been madly looking for a picture of the entry gates to the old city where I am sure there must have been a sign restricting entry “IN ITALIAN”
There is an international standard of road signs such as ” NO ENTRY” which is a red circle with a white bar through it. Condition can then be printed underneath.
If like normal people I was faced with that sign even with italian woridng underneath. I wouldnt HAVE GONE IN THERE.
If they have chosen to verbally warn people who dont read their language these things are going to happen.
After reading pages of this BLOG I am not going to pay the 2 fines I received.
They total 116 euros each if paid within 60 days or 185 euros if paid after 60 days.
This is an ENORMOUS amount in Australia dollars. Over $500 Aussie dollars !!
Let em come here to Australia and demand the cash. Till then I will treat this as a scam.
Graham
Hi Alex, and all,
my boyfriend and I jsut received two letters from Hertz a couple of days ago. We were in Italy the beginning of May and toured form Rome to Milan via Tuscany. The letter we just received (both dated 26/08/09) were invoice for 18 EUR (15EUR administration fee and 3 EUR VAT) each. One issued at S. Casciano in Val di Pesa (which appears to be close to Pisa, when I am looking on the map), it is for speed limit; the second one was from Florence for “Verbale fine on Line”. What does that mean? I read some of the comments here but couldn’t find the meaning of this line. The fines are for two subsequent days.
Here is what is says on the Hertz letter:
“Miscellaneous Information
The charge on this invoice is made to cover costs incurred in providing the driver name and address information to the relevant authority in Italy, subsequent to notification of a traffic offense that is alleged to have occurred during the rental period covered by the original rental invoice”.
I am confused whether we should expect the actual traffic fines to come in the mail or has Hertz taken care of them? What do you think?
Anything would help. Thank you
Hi Nora,
“Verbale fine on Line” – means that you will find the fine details online – as in on the WWW – not that you have been fined for parking on a line! At least I don’t think so.
Hertz, and others, charge people an admin cost for processing fines – this is usually written into the small print on the Hertz contract.
This means that they have told the police who was in the car at the time of the alleged offences. Hertz will not take care of the fines – at some time in the future, the actual fine documents will arrive – this can often take over a year – as you may have noticed from reading a few of the 400 odd comments here.
Be patient!
Hope that helps a little.
Best,
Alex
There’s a lot of inaccurate information, incorrect assumptions, false logic etc in the comments on this page, much of it in the direction of “they can’t catch ME”. Once again, my advice is to read this page: http://www.bella-toscana.com/traffic_violations_italy.htm
All over Europe, municipalities depend on fines for income. And they are getting serious about coordinating fine collection.
Hi Richard,
You are probably right with regard to the comments on this page – but people do tend to get a little het up when they receive unexpected fines.
But, as you almost say, they can catch you, and they will – they make quite a bit of money out of it. In Italy though, they have been several reports of municipalities tampering with their cameras to increase their income.
Still, I would recommend that others go visit the link you mention – lots of useful information there.
Best,
Alex
Hi, I have received, in Canada, a notification of violation for driving in a restricted area in Rome. It’s been 18 months since I was there. This did come by registered mail and does threaten to send the ticket to the DEMO for collection.
My question, has anyone had experience in not paying these fines? What happens after a year or two? I might never want to go back to Italy but I would like to travel to France and the UK and I wonder if there are any travel ramifications from not paying. Also, if you haven’t paid have you heard from this collection group?
Thanks
Sheryl
Sheryl,
While not paying is an option, there is evidence that it is not a good idea. Please follow this link and read the section ‘What to do about it if you are ticketed and fined?’ and then the sub-section ‘Non-EU residents’.
http://www.bella-toscana.com/traffic_violations_italy.htm
From what you will read, it looks as though non-payment could turn out to be more expensive than you would imagine – but do also look at the main post way above – there are 7 pages, alas. Look for the section on Time Limits – your fine might be outside them.
Do also check the circumstances of your fine too – you might have grounds for it to be annulled, for example driving to and from a hotel you booked in a restricted traffic area.
As far as I am aware, not paying a fine in Italy is unlikely to have consequences in other European countries, but this could change, and may have already. The best option is to simply pay up and forget about it.
Hopefully someone else will chip in too.
Best,
Alex
Hi
We have had a total of 5 fines for driving in restricted areas in Florence in August 08. When the first two arrived I emailed and objected, explaining that there were four people in the car, all of whom were qualified and experienced drivers. None had seen any signs. I didn’t take the same action with the subsequent 3 fines but wrote to one of Florence’s MEP’s and our MEP to complain.
I have had no response from the Italian MEP but our MEP raised a question with the relevant committee in the European Parliament and sent me the response. There is now to be a requirement within all European countries for clarity in signage and that common signs should be displayed in different languages. It will take time, as these things do, but at least if the Italians are made to clean up their act it will be something. If signs are then not apparent people will have grounds to Appeal.
We recently received 3 Registered Letters demanding payment within 60 days. No idea what has happened to the other two.
We love Italy but our view has now been soured by the tourist rip-off tactics imposed by the Italian authorities. Wont be going again, so voting ‘with our feet’ so to speak.
Has anybody got advice re paying fines by credit card? That would be so much simpler.
My notification arrived 13 months after the offence, Is this a record?
I can read Italian and saw no restriction sign on the Via Roma. How can I challenge? In the UK you can go to court if you know you are innocent but that doesn’t seem to be an option provided by the Comune di Pisa.
Isnt the whole thing a terrible bore, spoiling the Pisa experience in retrospect?
i have just recieved a parking ticket from sardina from retal car i hired not hertz., the fine is for 76.25 euros to be 112.25 in 60 days the alleged offence was for parking on grass and th roadside to go to a beach. With many italian cars doing the same, no signs but only the my hire car with the ticket .>?>? how strange, the offence was on 20/07/08 and this arrived 434 days later , as you said 150 days is maxium time to inform me! nivi emo.nivi .it can this be for real ?? PS The hire company swiped my card manuel and i made sure the slip was returned to me when i returned the car. Also i got scammed by avis car rental at menorca airport where i hired a car paid cash for hire then got hit £300 on my credit card when back home hence never let them have your details when cars returned
Hi,
I got a note through the letter box yesteday, telling me that there was an international letter to pick up: it had to be signed for. Intrigued, I hurried along to my local post office today to pick it up. I signed for it. Doh.
It was a Violation of the Highway Code notice. Apparently, when I was in Alghero, Sardinia on 29 May 2008I “entered illegally a resticted traffic area”. I was in Alghero on 29 May 2009, and I did hire a car on one day while I was there, though I can’t recall which day it was. The notice tells me I was caught on an approved video system, though there is nothing on the “emo” site to confirm this. What there is,though, are copies of what look like letters to and from the hire car company. The latest date stamp on them is 8 October 2008. By my calculation, that is some 364 days ago. I think the ******* are too late. And I’m going to tell them so. I’ll let you know what they say.
I’m with your earlier commenters: I like italy and generally, the italians. I’ve holidayed there four times, and spent lots of my hard earned income there.But this is not right. This system clearly targets tourists. I saw no sign, and probably wouldn’t have understood one if I had. This system suggestst an aggressive and insulting attitude to foreigners. It is most unsympathetic. Even assuming my objection is accepted, I’m not going back. I’ll spend my money somewhere else.
Regards
Richard
(Re my previous email: you will have spotted the deliberate error. The “offence” was committed on 29 May 2008, not 2009. That is, over 16 months ago. And whilst I appreciate Alex’s comment about the naturally dilatory italians, the delay in all these cases is suspicious. They miscalculated in my case, but it seems to me they are deliberately “taking it to the wire” so that no-one can really recall who, what, where, when, how or why. Putting to one side the actual time limit they give themselves, this delay is contary to what the lawyers would call “natural justice”. And I think I might make that point too….)
Richard
Like so many others I have just received a penalty notice from Pisa. Mine is dated 16 Sep 09 (115 euros increasing to 187.50 after 60 days) for a ‘restricted zone’ offence on 23 Apr 2008 – almost 17 months earlier. I was driving a hire car but I have no record of its Registration Number and although I have no recollection of committing any infringement I cannot challenge the validity of the penalty notice. The website that promises to show me a photograph seems inaccessible anyhow.
I am more concerned however by the delay in issuing the notice – almost 17 months. I believe the Italian authorities must issue a penalty notice within 12 months of discovering the identity of the driver. (In UK a fixed penalty notice must be issued within 14 days of the offence or else a prosecution started within 6 months.) Taking the best (or worst) scenario from the Itralian point of view it must have taken the Municipality of Pisa 5 months to get my name from the car hire company and a further 12 months to issue a penalty notice. If I were to appeal unsuccessfully against the fine or refused to pay, it would be interesting (but alas expensive) to challenge such delay and want of execution in the higher courts.
My wife signed for the recorded delivery letter when it arrived but at the moment I’m planning to ignore it . This goes slightly against the grain having served as a magistrate for 22 years (Sorry if this sounds rather pompous). In that time I learned that justice must be firm but also fair; it seems however that in Italy, from where the word justice (justitia) comes, this principle has crumbled.
Any comments, views or advice welcomed.
James.
Hello James,
Sorry to hear that you are yet another victim of the Pisa ZTL system. Nobody seems to notice the signs which indicate the existence of the zone, so you are not alone.
One of these fine days, excuse the pun, I’ll go to Pisa and have a look around.
Anyway, if you go to the original post on the surface of this veritable ocean of comments, click on page 6 and you will find something about Time Limits. I think it is still up to date, in which case 17 months seems too long, and your fine should be invalid. You could quote the information above at the Pisa fine collection authority – in English – and see what happens. Please do let me know if you try this.
Interesting to here that a (still serving?) magistrate (not at all pompous to mention) finds this situation annoying, and, dare I say it, unjust. As for Italian justice, aside from being horribly slow, a certain person, who is currently Italy’s prime minister, seems to have scant respect for it. Not sure what to read into this!
You can also try writing to your MEP about this, although others have tried, yet nothing has changed – the Pisa authorities are within their rights to do what they do, even if the legality of the cameras used is being challenged by an Italian consumer association.
Best of luck – and please remember that I am not a lawyer, so whatever I say needs to be confirmed with a real legal expert.
Regards,
Alex
Does anyone here know where to send a letter contesting a Rome ticket?
Much thanks,
Ron
I have received a speeding fine dating back to January 09 from Bergamo, for doing 7mph over speed limit. I live in a gated estate with 24hr security and the recorded letter was taken by them and not signed for. I have the recorded slip which was not signed and was still attached to the letter! The fine is an absurd 280euro and I do not intend to pay it.
Has anyone out there experienced any problems on return to Italy which I intend to do this february, like being arrested at the airport?
Best wishes
Steve
Hello everyone,
In october,2008 we were in Italy, Pisa with a rental mobilhome. Today we received from the rental company a letter with a document in french that we have to paid 115 € . I was looking to their site and there I could see a photo of our rental caravan; I have 60 days to pay but the date of the document is 23/9/2009 and the rental company received this letter yesterday !
My question is why they waiting so long to send it. Is this legal that they wait +/- 1 year
I am going to the local police here in Belgium to have more information.
Sorry if their are mistakes in my english, I am from Belgium and a flemisch person
If I have more information, I will let you know.
I
Richard – it was interesting to read your post. What progress have you made with this. I also yesterday received SEVEN traffic violation notices from the Alghero traffic authorities each for a fine of 110.25 euros. This is ludicrous and I am choking on how to deal with this. Any help from anyone would be appreciated. I called the number on the notices and they said I drove in a restricted zone intended for residents, disabled, and hotel residents in town. I saw NO sign informing me of this and neither did the stupid hire company (Hertz) inform me of this traffic rule – especially as they gave me the map with directions to my hotel which was routed directly via the restricted zone. I am going to request the appeal documentation and lodge and appeal but I can see this coming to nothing! Help anyone?
Hi
just recieved two traffic violations within 6mins circulating in restricated area,on one form my name is mis-spelt.Went to Italy in 25 Oct 2008 and my son went to the sorting office to pick up the letters as we had no idea what we were picking up on 30 Oct 2009 All i can see of the hire car is the back but on the photograph you cannot see any-one sitting in the car.They were 3 of us and also not being able to see which road we went down.Can any-one help.The above date is over 360 days.
We just got a notice today on a restricted zone violation while trying to find our rental apartment in Rome back in May, 2008. It was one block from the address we were searching for. I have seen some blogs indicating that this fine can be waived it you can prove that you are staying in a hotel in the restricted zone. I have my reservation confirmation and receipt of payment. Has anyone else seen this?
Hi Alex,
Thanks for providing a place to vent out regarding these stupid fines.
I read almost all of the threads posted in this blog since like so many others i’ve also received a fine for “Art. 7 C 1/14A – The Vehicle crossed a limited traffic area outside of authorized hours” or should i say two fines in less than 33 min.
Firstly, the fine arrived today, the 09/11/09, by regular mail while the so called penalty occurred on the 03/09/08. I read the information provided regarding the legal time frame for the Italian authority to send such a fine and as far as i can understand it I’m supposed
to be off the hook. Am i?
Secondly, is it even legal to charge you for the same offense with only a 33 min time interval?
I would love to hear your thoughts about this via e-mail or through this blog.
Thanks,
Nir
Excellent site Alex. I have just received a 110euro fine from Alghero in Sardinia – seems as though they are all at. I am an experienced european traveller and drive in Europe at least 4-5 times a year. I am also a frequent visitor to Italy and have a good knpwledge of their road traffic signs, yet I did not notice the sign in Alghero which I understand is very discreetly hidden and as such is proving a very valuable money earer for a City who is desperate for cash (The Italians are not noted for their willingness to pay taxes). I do understand that the Italian Government was fined heavily by the EU in 2002 for precisely the offence of deliberately targetting foreign motorists. They have probably fine tuned their procedures but are still in effect generating cash from this Council sponsored “Scam” My European MEP is taking this up in Brussels. I suggest if you have been affected, you should write to your MEP, – that is of course what they are there for.
As to the question of recovery of the fine, what can they do in the |UK to recover this money
Dear all you fellow bad reckless drivers, I joined this group recently and I learned from reading your blog that I am not the only one to recieve these traffic fines after one year or more…
I would like to summerize what I learned:
1 – in the issue of transfering this data to credit bureau or to the national/international police- I dont know enough.
2 – in the issue of the “forced paying” by the credit card that you gave to the car agency, I checked with Visa EU regualtions, and they are not entitled to debit you after more 3 monthes !!! If you are debited (for the fine or for the handling) , you can ask the Visa issuer of your card to cancel this transaction.
I hope you found this results helpful,
As far as I see, I will not pay…
Good luck to all of you,
Adi
I’m so glad to find this blog. My husband and I visited Italy in 10/08 and rented a car and drove all over Italy. Our daughter was studying for one semester in Montepulicano so we thought it would be perfect to visit her and see all of Italy by car. I even communicated with her Professor that arranges the studying abroad program for hotel information, etc., in various cities. He gave us his advice on a hotel in Florence. Our hotel was in the old historic section of the city. We were not advised by ANYONE, the Professor, car rental agency, hotel, etc., to be aware of the limited traffic area. We did watch for any signage with a line running through or X or in red and did NOT see any during our drive around Florence. One late afternoon we needed to do 1 load of laundry and found one not far from our hotel but too far to walk with a load so we drove, as we could not find a parking place, we circled 3 times before stopping and parking. We did not see a sign and we definately were not the only car parked along the street. Like many others here, we received the additional charges by our rental car agency and we contested because we were not aware of any violation and they couldn’t advise us of the violation so I was successful in having them reversed. Then several months later (not sure how long at this time) we received a letter/notification from the police so my husband did some research and learned he could appeal but not until we received the registered traffice violation. Therefore, when we received the THREE separate registered letters he signed for them (apparently our mistake?) We are being charged 107.45 EU for each one and they are all within 10 mins or less. After reading that we can appeal however if we do not win our appeal we will have to pay double we are now too afraid to appeal. In reading above I found where someone indicated that if you receive more than one violation for the same incident within one hour you only have to pay for one? Does anyone know if you must appeal the other two and if so on what grounds? Or do we just pay for one and not address the other two? Thank you so much for all of this great information. We live in the US and now I’m scared to death that out of no where we could receive something similar from Pisa or Rome or Sorrento or Naples or Sienna or Montepucliano or ???? We loved Italy and are so disappointed with this deceptive way of entrapment. We may not visit Italy again, however, some of the cruises we would like to take originate in Rome or Venice so we are too fearful of what might happen to us in landing at the airports and don’t want to take any chances.
Hi Alex; I received a violation dated May24,2009 for “circulating on roads reserved for other vehicles without authorization” The violation allegedly occurred on May 24, 2008, at 204pm. After having my attorney check it out I decided to pay the fine. One week after paying the fine, I receieved another notice, this time dated October 2, 2009, for a similar violation, this one ” circulating in limited traffic area without authorization”. This allegedly occurred also on May 24, 2008, at 157pm. Any comments?
Hi Jim,
Sorry to hear about the second fine, as I’m sure are you.
The situation regarding the receiving of two fines one after the other is a little complex. I was speaking to some Italian lawyers about this the other day.
It is possible to escape these second fines, but, you need to show that there was no way you could have avoided the second photo. In other words, and this is where it is fiddly, if you could have exited from the ZTL, but did not, then a second, third etc. etc. fine produced by a ZTL camera is perfectly valid. I think leaving and then re-entering a ZTL is counted as being good reason to fine you too – but you would need to have a lawyer confirm this.
I’ve no idea whether there is a limit to how many fines one can accrue or in what time period.
With a little luck one of the lawyers I know will chip in and help us all understand just how many fines one can receive as a result of entering one of these zones.
Best,
Alex
PS If you need the name of an Italian lawyer (one based in Milan, not Pisa – let me know)
We also got such a letter from “Corpo di Polizia Municipale di Firenze” and we have to pay €98,10 because we were driving in a restricted zone. We don’t remember this as it took place in May 2008. They made a picture of our bus. I searched at the internet for more information and found info at the website of our dutch road/traffic organisation. They also show a photo of the restricted area sign, so you can see it here:
http://www.anwb.nl/rechtshulp,/voor-wie/vakantieganger/Boetes-in-Itali-.html
It seems to be legal so we probably will have to pay the money. I will first call the ANWB legal aid to know more about it, for example what will happen if I don’t pay.
Roos (Netherlands).
Hi Alex,
I am a UK resident. I received a fine today dated 01/08/10 for driving in Rome on 10/09/08. The rental company was contacted by the Italian authorities in December 12/08, which means the date of the infaction is > 365 days after the authorities got my detais.
Is 365 days the time limit they have to issue the fine or is it 2 years?
if it is the former, do I contact them to let them know that they have been too slow so I won’t pay, or do I just ignore it.
If it is the later, I drove on that day to a car park near to our hotel in the historical centre to drop off our bags. Would it be too late for the hotel to contact the authorities to wave the fine?
Thanks for your help
Cedric
Much as I would like to, I don’t see the relevance of the 60 day limit for the owner to respond with the identity of the driver. Particularly in the case of my son from the UK who hired a car in Germany and has, supposedly, committed a violation in Rome. I would presume that the Rome authority is bound by the 360 day limit to proceed, but that only starts when the driver data is received, regardless of how long it took to arrive; why should Rome be penalised for the inefficiency of the Germans?
The offence in question was committed on 30 July 2008. According to the papers lodged, the enquiry of the rental company is dated 14 November 2008 and the response is stamped as received on 7 September 2009; the demand is dated 29 December 2009. Without the co-operation of the rental company (Budget) and going to court, I have no basis to challenge the timing of events, even though I suspect that the efficient Germans replied in good time and that the response (the hire agreement) was not date stamped until someone got round to processing it.
Hi, I have just had 3 fines at €115 each after 17 months since the offence, it has been over 360 days since the rental company told the police my identity. What should I do?
Hi I have just had 3 zone fines at €115 each, but it has been over 360 days since the police knew of my identity (can prove it). Do I have to pay the fines
I received 3 registered letters from Alghero in Sardinia. Containing…you guessed it 3no fines for entering an illegally restricted traffic area. The offences were committed 467 days ago! All 3 offences were committed at the same time 3 days in a row. I’m sure I made errors while driving in Sardinia however after the large amount of time that has passed how could I honestly remember or more importantly how could I defend myself (i.e. maybe the sign that I was supposed to have seen could have been vandalized or had a tree growing in front of it). As I said, I’m sure I made mistakes, and the fines may have been genuine however to receive 3no fines (totalling €330) after nearly a year and a half after the offence with the note “the owner of the vehicle, as indicated by the competent authorities, must be considered guilty of the infraction until proven otherwise”…….i.e. guilty until proven innocent.
I have been to Italy twice since and will not return to Sardinia and probably not Italy again, these idiots are taking money from you and me and the good people of Italy who make a living from tourism.
All the best,
Mark
I think I am in much better position than everyone else – I’m Russian… but still – the same story : we rented a car in Rimini and were seen crossing into ZTL area in Rome . It might be amusing but the limited traffic area sign we apparantly violated can be found on google map – http://maps.google.ru/maps?hl=ru&rlz=1T4GGLR_ruRU329RU329&newwindow=1&q=italy+map&lr=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=%D0%98%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%8F&gl=ru&ei=q0hnS6KGOo7z-QaHmuWdBw&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=image&resnum=1&ved=0CAwQ8gEwAA
There is one thing that I do not understand – there is no internationally (under Vienna convention of 1968) recognised traffic sign which prohibits access to the area, only a note about limited traffic area written in italian. Do they think that everyone should speak italian ? One should be at least notified about ZTL areas (of course I only learned about this later after “commiting” the offence). It all looks like a tourist trap to me.
I contested 39 EUR charged to me by the rental company, and got it back. Though I had to cancel my CC.
To make the story even more fun – the rental company initially billed me twice the same amount. It took me 6 months to get money back (it was returned not on my card but by Western Unoin) and only after I called German head office of the rental company.
So next time I would not rent a car in Italy.
Anyway they are not going to get anything out of me, not even the postage (the italian taxpayers should cover the postage, I reckon)……I cannot imagine them collecting anything in Russia.
I too received the dubious restricted traffic zone violation just today. It’s terribly infuriating and certainly does not make me want to travel back to Italy especially since thee assumed violations occurred in 9/08. My question is this? I contacted my rental company they provided the italian authorities my info on 1/26/09 (date stamped 2/3/09 at the Florence Police). They then sent me the letter advising me of the fine in letter dated 1/21/10 which I received on 3/3/10. The time from the date on the letter to the police to the date of the fine letter is exactly 360 days. However my argument is that notification has to take place within 360 days. Even if we are to give them the extra time for them to be notified by the rental agency, they are still outside the 360 day limit by the time I received the letter. Not that I expect this argument to get me far, but I am going to give it a try. In the end I have no plans to pay this fine as I am not a citizen of the EU, nor am I going to give out my credit card or banking information to any foreign web site/ govt. In fact the only time I used my credit card in italy was when I rented this car, then 4 months later I start getting random charges in Italy for everything from electronics to gas ($1300 total). Luckily my credit card co shut things down before it got worse, and credited me back the charges but that is going to be the last time any personal information gets shared overseas. In fact I actually thought this certified letter I received from the Italian police was going to say they jailed the douche who stole my credit card and there was going to be restitution paid to my credit card co. so I was happy to sign for it.
We visited Sardina in Aug 2009 and I today received letter and copies in italian only of offences in driving into the centre of Alghero 5 separate fines of 40 euros each plus adfmin fee of 40 euros and it looks like the hire car company intend to debit my credit card used when I booked the car
All these oversights by me were totally unintentional – not easy driving in a busy town! and some of the timings are within minutes of one and another ! II have never had any such problems whislt driving anywhere else abroad
I am really not happy and wonder what if anything i can do
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR CREATING THIS BLOG YEARS AGO. ALEX. I just found it and have gotten a headache from reading so many complaints, ridiculous stories, helpful advice and information. But the main thing this morning has done has made me realize I am not alone! For that I am so grateful. I feel much better and less stressed and worried. I received 2 notices of ‘infractions’ from Florence from a visit in June 2009 in the mail in Jan. 2010. After reading a while, I am going to contact AAA, who rented the car for me, and let them know they should inform all their clients NOT to drive in Italy until they become informed of this corrupt con game. I also plan on writing a letter to be published in the local newspaper. I may even try to contact a congressman/senator and see if they are aware of this shameful scam. Our area thrives on tourism and we would never treat our visitors who were lost or trying to get to their hotels and/or rental agencies like this. Mercy and compassion and empathy must not ‘translate’ with these authorities. All the other Italians I met and spent time with were wonderful!!! Real kind, thoughtful, helpful human beings. I am so sad that now I’ve been turned off to going back to what was my favorite country in Europe.
Hi Melinda,
Glad you found the information here moderately comforting and that it helped you feel less victimised.
Despite being first written way back in 2006, it continues to be one of the most ‘popular’ posts on Blog from Italy.
Through the years people have tried to do something about what does, at first sight, seem to be profiteering, but nothing has been done -I think Italian local authorities find the income too handy.
By all means write to a congressman. I hope he or she can stir up some mud -but I doubt it. It’d have to be someone capable of rattling Italy to the core.
Good luck. If you do move the odd mountain or two, please let us all know – and you might save another 15,000 people or so from some heartache. I hate to think how many people have now decided never to visit Italy or never to return.
I wonder if anyone has tried doing a cost benefit analysis re this pesky tourist tax?
All the best,
Alex
Hi, I will never visit Italy again.
I think the Italians have become too greedy, I received a notice from car rental company and money taken from my credit card. I stopped payment by phoning my credit card.
I now have fines from florence municipiality x2. I am not going to pay. September 09 offences commited now july 10. Will let you all know if they persist in chasing me for payment.They said circulating in limited traffic area twice in just over one hour.
I live in the UK so member of eu. I will sign for nothing if it comes from Italy or if I think it is anything to do with above.
Cheers Gordon.
I am from Australia and like a lot of people here, I have just received a traffic infringement from Pisa for “circulating in restricted traffic zone” from 21 Sept 2008. Am I going to pay – NO. Anyone paying a fine like this that is not from Europe is crazy. As far as I have researched there is no International reciprocal agreement with foreign countries. I emailed the fine to a friend in Italy. He said not to pay, not even bothering to appeal. They are full of hot air. They are just hoping to collect revenue from gullable tourists.
For the purpose of providing info to US (or perhaps non-EU) residents who received EMO letters, I have the following:
Two VTL violations July 07
Received first letter February 08 (regular mail, not certified)….ignored it.
Received second letter September 08 (also regular mail), ignored this one too.
Have heard nothing since, and it’s over 31 months since the violation.
You can draw your own conclusions about the consequences of nonpayment, I’ve certainly drawn my own.
This is very interesting from a legal point of view. Most jurisdictions have a time limit on prosecutions for motoring offences. In the UK it is 6 months. This is obvious really. We are all subject in the EC to the European Convention and you have to be able to have a fair trial. If you only get notified 18 months after the event that you are alleged to have committed a moving traffic offence, you can hardly be expected to remember whether, eg you were the driver or your partner was.
Where Italian law differs is that it distinguishes between Italians (who have to be notified within 150 days) and everyone else (360 days). I can say with some confidence, that at least in relation to EC citizens, such a distinction is illegal. Why do I say that? well the European court has already decided that it is. The case is called EC -v- Italian Republic, case no C-224/00.
In the 21st century no such distinction could be justified. After all, the hire company have your details on computer. A letter takes the same time to get from Roma to London as it does from Roma to Milan.
My guess is that the Italian government would not wish for their legislation to be challenged in the European Court, so for those of you facing fines imposed more than 210 days after the alleged offence (60 + 150), I would try sending a notice of appeal threatening to write to your MP, MEP, European Commission etc., and citing the above case.
For those of you who are notified within 150 days, then you will have to take your chances. What chance are you taking? Well the reciprocal enforcement legislation does provide for European Arrest Warrants! But hey! who wants to go on holiday in Italy anyway?
Hi Peter,
Very interesting what you say about this sticky situation –
“I can say with some confidence, that at least in relation to EC citizens, such a distinction is illegal. Why do I say that? well the European court has already decided that it is. The case is called EC -v- Italian Republic, case no C-224/00.”
Just the kind of information I had hoped this post may have unearthed. The text of the case you mention is here: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/Notice.do?val=264059:cs&lang=en&list=264059:cs,250793:cs,246392:cs,&pos=1&page=2&nbl=13&pgs=10&hwords=C-224/00~&checktexte=checkbox&visu=#texte
There is also a bi-lingual version from which sections in Italian could be quoted at the Italian authorities.
Here is the case summary:
Member State which maintains in force a disproportionate difference in treatment between offenders based on the place of registration of their vehicles, by providing that where there is a breach of the highway code committed with a vehicle registered in that Member State, the offender has 60 days from the recording or notification of the offence in which to pay the minimum amount prescribed or to bring an appeal if he has not already paid the minimum amount, whereas where an infringement is committed with a vehicle registered in another State the offender must either immediately pay the minimum amount prescribed, or, if he wishes to contest the alleged infringement, he must provide security equal to twice the minimum amount, on pain of having his driving licence confiscated or his vehicle impounded, has failed to fulfil its obligations under Article 6 of the Treaty (now, after amendment, Article 12 EC).
In simple terms, if the Italian authorities cannot notify people from outside of Italy in the same time as it takes to notify Italian nationals, then the fine is invalid.
This would count for EC citizens, though not necessarily for those from outside of Europe.
Big thanks to you, Peter, for mentioning this.
Kind regards,
Alex
Hi Alex,
Brilliant blog – I stumbled on it while looking for info about an alleged traffic violation in Brescia. I really admire your tenacity & commitment to revealing the hidden mysteries of Italian motoring fines.
In January I received an €18 “administrative expenses” bill from Avis – charged to my credit card in December – for giving my name & address to Comune di Brescia. Avis enclosed a poor 2nd- or 3rd-generation photocopy of an undated “verbale” – in Italian – apparently from Brescia Municipal Police, not addressed to anyone. My tourist Italian is good enough to “get around”, but not enough to understand what the notice says, although it seems to relate to entering a ZTL last July (we were there at that time). Also, the text is partly obliterated by some of the official rubber stamps Italians love to plaster over everything, so is illegible even to a native. I have not had anything at all directly from Comune di Brescia.
I gather that a penalty notice must be sent by registered post. I assume the notice must also state the amount payable, when and by what means, and be addressed to a particular person by name (else why would they ask Avis for it?). So at present all I have is an unaddressed notice forwarded by a third party (Avis) by ordinary mail with an inkling of a potential unspecified fine that might in future be issued to someone for something. I do not regard that as official notification, or an obligation to pay anyone anything. The 360-day period expires on 27 June, so I’m not holding my breath. Also, from previous posts, the EMO procedure looks like an invitation to accept a reduced fine – like the UK fixed penalty system – without the hassle & potential extra cost of challenging the allegation. I’ll wait until I get my EMO notice to decide if it’s valid.
Anyhow, my credit card issuer subsequently reversed Avis’s charge when i rejected it as unsubstantiated because:
* Avis had not:
o identified the rental term/s and/or condition/s (all in Italian) under which it claimed payment
o supplied any evidence of the “administrative expenses” claimed, how they were calculated or where, when and/or how they were incurred.
* Neither Avis nor Comune di Brescia had supplied any evidence:
o of the nature of the supposed traffic violation
o that the alleged violation is legally valid
o that the alleged violation actually occurred
o of the penalty applicable for the alleged violation
o that any such penalty had been imposed
o that I am liable for any such penalty.
So, it seems worth reclaiming car hire admin charges if you have sufficient reason – if the “fine” is suspect or not proved, any associated fees & charges must therefore be equally invalid (someone mentioned that in an earlier post).
Your Important Update of 17-18 Feb mentioning an EC decision prompted me to peek at EU Human Rights issues, which has raised some very interesting questions about topics discussed in many previous posts. I’ll post about that later.
Hi Pablo,
Glad you’ve found the info useful.
As you say, waiting until an official recorded delivery notification is the best way to go.
Your way of dealing with the Avis admin charges sounds interesting, but from what I remember of a Eurpocar hire contract, there is a condition which seems to allow hire companies to pop these little extra charges on without asking – I think this is a no-no, but am not sure -not being a lawyer. It does, however, seem reasonable to expect Avis to justify the extra charges -otherwise one might be able to sue them for credit card fraud!
Hopefully others will read this; I’ll add it to the main post, and others on related subjects; and try the same tactic – it might cause Avis et al to moan to the Italian authorities which, in turn, might get something moving. I would not hold my breath though – this post has been on the www since 2006, after all, and not a fat lot has changed – except for case C-224/00 being brought to our attention by one kind person here. As I say, I’m not a legal eagle, but I did hope that someone night chip in with some useful info – call it the power of the web.
Let us all know how you get on if you have a spare moment or three.
Cheers,
Alex
Thanks Alex. For all I know the Avis contract might be similar to Europcar, but I’m not inclined to translate masses of small print to find out. I doubt the Fraud Squad would be interested in pursuing an €18 scam, and my card issuer refunded it anyway.
I’m not sure if the C-224/00 case applies to me as the car was registered in Italy, so I think they only have 210 days. If so, it expired on 28 Jan, so their time’s up already. What do you think?
My post my Human Rights thoughts tomorrow if I get the chance.
Hi Pablo,
It’s good that your card issuer smelled a rat – not many seem to.
As far as I am concerned, and from what I have understood, the nationality of the car does not count. What counts is the nationality of the driver and the period. The C-224/00 case appears to restrict Italy to maximum of 210 days to hunt down European Union resident offenders whether they are Italian or not. The longer period
If I were you, I’d still throw C-224/00 at them. Worth a try – then you can decide whether to pay up or not – but have a go before the fine increases, if possible.
Best,
Alex
Hi again Alex, and many thanks for your prompt response.
I really don’t want to be picky about this, but I looked carefully at EC case C-224/00 before posting, and I’ve looked again to make sure. The determining factor is not the nationality of the car nor its driver, but which country it’s registered in. The title of the case (from the 17 Feb Important Update at the top of this blog, from the link to the official case record and from Peter’s and your own posts) is:
“Difference in treatment of persons contravening the highway code according to the place of registration of their vehicle”
So an Australian driving a Swedish brand of car made from Korean & Indian parts, assembled in Mexico and registered in Hungary would be treated differently for violations of the Italian Highway Code from exactly the same car & driver but registered in Italy. The driver’s nationality or domicile makes no difference at all.
Sorry to be so pedantic, but I believe it’s an important distinction that anyone affected needs to understand before assembling their argument.
Best regards,
PabloUK (another non-lawyer!)
PS What HTML coding do you use for enhancing text in your blog?
Oops! Re-reading my own post just now, I realise it could look like I’d tripped myself up.
What I meant was that before case C-224/00 drivers of cars registered in Italy were treated differently from those registered elsewhere. Now of course – as you rightly point out – all drivers must be treated exactly the same, no matter where they or their car is from.
Sorry!
Hi Alex,
Thanks for the helpful blog!
Just received a “Circulating on roads reserved for other vehicles and indicated by traffic signs” penalty notice from EMO, for an alleged indiscretion in Florence (Via Senese) in a French registered Hertz hire car.
First notice was received 549 days after the ‘crime’ was committed.
I don’t remember driving in any restricted area on Via Senese and have subsequently ‘travelled’ on the entire length of the road on ‘Google maps’ and cannot find any places where such an offence could have been committed.
Does anyone have any idea what or where I could have done anything wrong on Via Senese (a bus lane perhaps?!)
If I log into the EMO website, with the password supplied on the notice, is it sophisticated enough to realise that I have logged in? At this stage, I don’t want to admit to receiving the first notice (it was sent as unregistered post).
EMO have contacted me directly and Hertz have no knowledge of the fine and have not provided my details to EMO (hence no admin fee). Hertz have confirmed that they will not pay the fine on my behalf.
The notice from EMO states that they got my details from RAC Finance. Does anyone know who they are? I have never had anything to do with any such company and am concerned why they have provided my details to EMO.
Also, without knowing who provided the details, I have no way of proving whether the Italians have satisfied the ‘360-day’ regulation.
The notice from EMO also states I have 20-days to appeal. Shouldn’t I get 60 days? Particularly as it took them 549 days to contact me!
I sent an email to FCO and the British Consulate in Florence but they just confirmed that there wasn’t much they could do to help (which, admittedly is fair enough) but they have recently added a warning to future tourists on the FCO website.
I accept that ignorance is not a valid defence and non-Italian nationals should educate themselves on Italian highway regulations but surely common sense should prevail for alleged minor indiscretions such as this. Although, if it subsidises those long Italian lunches in the Comune di Firenze, then why would they stop this lucrative ‘scam’!?
I agree that if a non-domicile is caught speeding or driving erratically then they should be chased and fined (although 549 days is still an excessively long time to issue a fine!).
Surely common sense dictates that a foreign driver might stray into a bus lane or similar reserved section of road in their attempts to stay as far ‘right’ and ‘out of trouble’ as possible.
I do admit that one of our party drove through the ZTL on the morning of arrival in Florence. However, this penalty notice does not appear to relate to the ZTL as it occurred on Via Senese, outside of the city centre.
We had to drive through the ZTL because we were attempting to reach a hotel in the ZTL area. The reason we wanted to stay at this hotel is that it had parking facilities and we did not want to leave the car in an unsecured parking facility. After spending 30 mins trying to locate the hotel, we gave up, left the central area and ended up staying at a hotel just outside of the ZTL.
I don’t want to pay the fine because I believe it to be invalid (C-224/00). I don’t want to appeal because the appeal process is so long-winded and they’ll probably throw it out and fine me more than double!
Let’s hope C-224/00 works! I’m going to Venice in September and am hiring a car to drive around Northern Italy for a week.
Thanks
Pedro
Hello again Alex. I hope these few suggestions will be useful to readers who want to contest their motoring fines. Just pick out the bits that apply to you.
Many posts above complain about the Italian authorities’ delay in notifying traffic penalties and their insistence on communicating in Italian. Fear not – the law is on your side, as I think both issues contravene the European Convention on Human Rights, specifically Part I Article 6:
“1 – In the determination of his civil rights and obligations or of any criminal charge against him, everyone is entitled to a fair and public hearing within a reasonable time by an independent and impartial tribunal established by law. Judgment shall be pronounced publicly but the press and public may be excluded from all or part of the trial in the interest of morals, public order or national security in a democratic society, where the interests of juveniles or the protection of the private life of the parties so require, or to the extent strictly necessary in the opinion of the court in special circumstances where publicity would prejudice the interests of justice.
2 – Everyone charged with a criminal offence shall be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law.
3 – Everyone charged with a criminal offence has the following minimum rights:
(a) to be informed promptly, in a language which he understands and in detail, of the nature and cause of the accusation against him;
(b) to have adequate time and facilities for the preparation of his defence;
(c) to defend himself in person or through legal assistance of his own choosing or, if he has not sufficient means to pay for legal assistance, to be given it free when the interests of justice so require;
(d) to examine or have examined witnesses against him and to obtain the attendance and examination of witnesses on his behalf under the same conditions as witnesses against him;
(e) to have the free assistance of an interpreter if he cannot understand or speak the language used in court.”
NOTE: This should not be confused with Article 6 of the EC Treaty referred to in Alex’s 17 Feb “Important Update” at the top of this blog.
Key words/phrases italicised above are “within a reasonable time”, “presumed innocent”, “promptly”, “in a language which he understands”, “in detail” and “free … interpreter”.
You must be told promptly of an accusation – presumably so you can recall the circumstances of the incident and collect any evidence you need while memories are still fresh. It follows that if you were not told promptly, then you have obviously been denied the opportunity of “a fair & public hearing within a reasonable time”. Thus it seems the Italian law allowing up to a year to tell you about an accusation is incompatible with the ECHR and is therefore invalid & unenforceable. As Mike, James & Peter have mentioned, a UK prosecuting authority must serve a Notice of Intended Prosecution within 2 weeks of an alleged traffic offence, and a penalty notice or court summons within 6 months. If the UK can do it, so could Italy – if it wanted to. You can form your own opinion of why Italian authorities delay sending a penalty notice for a year or more. My guess is it’s to reduce the likelihood of drivers remembering what happened or having kept car hire paperwork & hotel/restaurant/fuel/shopping receipts (to prove when & where you were) after such a long time. Depending on its timing and the extent of detail given, notification of a violation (such as an “amicable” EMO invitation to accept a fine) might satisfy the requirement to inform you promptly of an accusation. But the penalty notice sent by registered post is the important one, so if it arrives after 210 days you can reject it as denying you the option of a hearing “within a reasonable time”.
Regarding time limits, if you receive a penalty notice ask the car rental Co for a copy of documents showing when the police asked for the renter’s data and when they were given, so you can check whether the prescribed timescales were complied with and reject the penalty as out of time if they over-ran. If they claim they’re allowed 360 days remind them of European Court case C-224/00 (see Alex’s 17 Feb “Important Update”). Although that case concerned disparity in the treatment of drivers depending on where their cars were registered, it reinforced the principle in ECHR Pt.1 Art.14 that laws must not discriminate between nationalities. Thus you can reject any liability on the basis that the 360-day rule discriminates against non-Italians, so is incompatible with the ECHR and is therefore invalid & unenforceable.
You can insist on being told of the accusation in your own language, despite what Italian authorities might prefer. Again, an Italian law allowing authorities to demand communication in Italian is incompatible with the ECHR and is therefore invalid & unenforceable. It seems you are allowed 60 days from receiving a fine to pay up or appeal, so you could email or fax – in your own language – on the 59th day from receiving a penalty notice in Italian (or an incorrect own-language translation containing bad grammar or wrong spelling such as “Grait” Britain), saying you don’t understand it and ask for an accurate translation. Meanwhile the 210-day clock is still ticking, as the notice doesn’t count as served unless it’s “in a language which [you] understand”, and of course sent by registered post. If it contains any factual errors (name, time, date, location, car Reg.No, make, model etc) you can safely ignore it as it does not accurately describe the accusation and is thus unprovable – but don’t tell ‘em as they could re-issue a correct one within the 210-day period. The longer you spin out the arguments the more they would be likely to abandon the fine or run out of time. As Alex suggested, you could impose your own time-limit, such as “If I do not receive the information requested within 14 days I will assume you have (a) withdrawn all accusation/s, (b) cancelled all associated penalties & charges and (c) ceased all action/s”. With luck they won’t bother to provide a proper translation in time, or just give up. If they complain send them a copy of Article 6 – in English – with the relevant text highlighted (to be ultra-helpful you could also send the Italian version if you can find it).
Another thing: in earlier posts Alex (and the Bella-Toscana link) suggested that Italian law assumes you are guilty until proved innocent. That too is incompatible with the ECHR, under which – as in most western-style democracies – the accused is presumed innocent until proved guilty. Thus an authority has no right to collect a penalty unless the accusation has been proved. Just saying you were seen in such a place at such a time does not prove you were. A photo of your car – or its number plate, or the driver, or the road – proves nothing without context such as time, date, place, nature of infringement and applicable law – including evidence that adequate signage was in place and operative (the international symbol of a red ring on a white background with a pictogram and/or text specifying the restriction). A close-up snap of a number plate without any verifiable context might lead a suspiciously-minded person to wonder if there could be an element of fakery involved, but of course I can’t imagine who could possibly be so uncharitable… Find the road in Google maps – there might be a “street view” showing if there were proper signs, properly positioned and visible. You could make their life more difficult by asking for proof – in your own language – that the recording equipment has been properly maintained, calibrated and tested, as we can in the UK for camera-related allegations. If the authority can’t prove the camera was working properly, who’s to say it recorded the correct time & date when the photo was taken or if a restriction actually applied when it was taken? Ask for the make & model of equipment and copies of certificates etc (translated to your language) showing this particular device has been certified & approved for this particular use; does it have a good or bad reliability history? You can probably think of a string of other things to slow up the process which you can keep trotting out, one after the other, until they get bored. If they don’t like it or won’t co-operate, tough – the greedy, profiteering scumbags shouldn’t try to rip off foreign tourists with unverified accusations. I certainly wouldn’t even think of using the appeals procedure, for which you have to deposit twice the initial fine! If they try to pursue you for non-payment, you’ll probably have a whole bunch of unanswered technical questions as your defence. The bottom line is, they must prove their case if asked.
EU member nations are legally bound to ensure their laws comply with the ECHR. Therefore I believe the above applies to all nationalities driving in Italy, not only EU citizens. National laws that don’t comply with EU legislation can be challenged in the European Court, as Alex pointed out in his 17 Feb “Important Update”. Italian cities probably issue several million of these fines every year (the Bella-Toscana article said 859,959 in Florence alone in 2008). If even only 10% were challenged it would clog the fines system to the extent it would be unworkable – and might even persuade city authorities to review their policy of killing off the tourist trade.
For those concerned at the legality of the above strategies, I must stress that none of them contravene any valid regulations or laws. On the contrary, they rely on applying the appropriate laws, though not necessarily those the Italian authorities would like. These arguments are equally valid if your own national traffic authority tries to collect under some sort of reciprocity agreement.
Like you Alex, I’m not a lawyer, just an ordinary bloke who can read & think, and I’ve no idea if any of this has been tested in court. If not, who’s first …?
——————————————————————————–
After considering all the above you might conclude – as I have – that the best course of action is to save a lot of time & effort by regarding these extortionate & unproven demands as nothing more than speculative “fishing trips”, and merely ignore them. Really – without reciprocal legislation between national traffic authorities, how’re they gonna get you? I guess the time to worry is when you wake up next to a horse’s head…
I was in Italy in May 2008. Like others, I received two Euro 55 charges on my credit card at least six months after leaving the country. I contested the credit card charge and was told by the rental company it was for traffic tickets. I allowed the charge, and then later received unregistered mail at my USA address from the police asking for euro 125 payment for each fine. One in Florance and one in Arezzo. Same Italian agency writing about both tickets. I contacted the rental company and questioned why I was being charged for fines I had already paid. They told me the Euro 55 was the service charge for “ratting me out” to the Italian police and was not payment of the fine. It irritates the heck out of me that I could have to pay 2 x Euro 170 for a parking ticket. I did not pay the fine and figured I would never return to Italy. Silly me. It’s 2010 and I am planning on returning next month. I will not be renting a car. Any chance I get “caught” at the Italian border when entering the country?
I’m italian and if I get a fine here in Italy, I pay. If I go abroad and get a fine there, I pay. Why don’t you want to pay your fines in Italy if you were driving in a wrong way? You have to pay, like every person. You’re not special because you are tourist, everyone should act in a correct way
I’m glad you respect the rules, MM. I think many who have left comments here would be happy to respect them too – it’s just that a) fines arrive after an age b) people feel ‘hoodwinked’ because they have no idea they are entering the restricted traffic zones.
And tourists are an easy target – because they do not know Italian. Better street markings would help.
As for the fines, the time limit for sending out fine notifications should be 6 weeks, and the time for paying them, 6 months. We live in the 21st century now – this should be possible.
Best,
Alex
Well the reason that everyone non Italian is up in arms is that a) the fines are very high by European standards – speeding fine in UK £60, France €45 if you pay promptly. Also the Italian authorities take a ridiculous amount of time to sent the notices and treat foreigners differently to Italians. They insist that we communicate in Italian and say the fine will be doubled if the form isn’t exactly right and/or you lose your appeal which is just a way of trying to pressurise people in to paying up and not making a fuss even if they have a legitimate defence.
3-18-10 ALEX: I just read your IMPORTANT UPDATE OF 17 FEBRUARY 2010 about Case No. C-224/00 and the <210 day notification requirement, etc. In as much as a month has gone by since your VERY HELPFUL post, has this position been challenged or otherwise contradicted? I don't see any new posts. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR HELPFUL INFORMATION. signed "Tuscany Two".
Hi Dick,
As far as I am aware, this position not been challenged or otherwise contradicted. I believe one or two of the readers of this post will be attempting to use this challenge, and I am hoping that someone will let us know how they get on.
I think someone will, seeing as many have kindly supplied some very useful information on this sticky issue – for which I thank them.
Glad you have found the information useful.
To keep yourself up to date on things, I suggest you subscribe to the comment feed for this post: http://www.blogfromitaly.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/feed/ using something like Google Reader or a suitable email program.
Best regards,
Alex
Well, whaddayaknow – this very topic (and other car hire issues) is on the agenda of an EU consumer issues conference in Brussels today. There’s a brief discussion about it, focussing on Tuscan ZTLs, on BBC Radio 4′s “You & Yours” programme here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyours/ram/2010_11_fri_02.ram. If that link doesn’t work, click the “Listen” button next to “Car hire complaints” at http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyours/listenagain/friday.shtml.
Let me know if you can’t listen and I’ll post a précis.
Thanks, PabloUK,
I have tried to listen, but cannot open either of the files. Could be because I’m in Italy.
If you could post a précis – that would be useful. Thanks.
I’m curious to know what was said, and I imagine others might be too.
Best,
Alex
Alex,
Those BBC links are working now. I guess when I posted them the relevant files hadn’t yet been loaded.
I’ll post a précis soon in case anyone still can’t open them, though the piece didn’t add a lot to what’s here already.
Hi Pablo,
I just clicked on the links again, and guess what? I can hear the radio programme excerpts now!
No need for a précis, but thanks for the offer!
I’ll have a listen tomorrow.
Thanks again.
Best,
Alex
Pablo – I listened, and have emailed the You and Yours team – pointing them towards this post.
If they get back to me, I’ll post something.
Fingers crossed!
Best,
Alex
If i might make a suggestion cancel your credit card after hiring your cars abroad. That way you wouldnt have any charges applied that you need to claim back. Whenever I’ve entered Italy the immigration official checks only that you are who the passport says you are. there is no electronic check done on the passport like in the UK. In all cases no words are exchanged and you are waved on so he can check the rest of the plane.
hope that helps
Hello there,
start of July 2009 me and my wife took my in-laws to a weekend in Florence. As in trying to make it as much relaxing as possible I rented a car to drive us around and to visit places. Arriving in Florence the problems started. I was dark already, and the car didn’t have any gps-system, so we were driving around for some time trying to find the hotel. In the end we actually did find it and the people of the hotel we kind enough to let us know they had a spot in front of the hotel, which was reserved for them only and that we could use to leave the car during the night. They also told us that on Sundays parking wasn’t paid. As we were leaving on a Tuesday and they said they needed the parking spot for deliveries and possible other tourists we dropped the car off in a paid parking lot during the last night of our stay. A few months after having turned in the car with the car rental company, I noticed they had charged me an extra 192€ for speeding, which I honestly couldn’t remember whether it was right or not, so I didn’t complain. It WAS possible, though I have the impression I was just following the flow of traffic. Now March 22nd and 23rd of 2010 I received FOUR letters with each a different case number stating I violated Italian road laws and have to pay 105.85€ each! It comes from this emo.nivi.it thing, is nicely written in Dutch, though with some small errors, it states that if I call this and that number I will be answered in English, Dutch, French and German, that I have two ways of paying and that I have to do this within 20 days! Not even once did I find a notice under the windshield cleaners to let me know I was violating while parking. My father in law does around 50000km on the road per year, I average around 60000km per year and I really don’t remember having ignored any road signs, nor did my father in law. That nice little weekend last year is going to cost me this year’s holliday, like this. Any suggestions on what I should do?
Kind regards,
Diederik Fontaine
ps: I’m a Belgian, my wife’s Portuguese and we live in Holland. Do those suggestions I read briefly also apply to our situation? I mean the 150 days, the 210 days…
Wow, 2 year long blog, and I read it all! My daughter and I spent 4 weeks in Europe in July 2009….only two days in Florence, Italy….we rented a car and took a day trip to Florence from Chianti . I remember, vaguely, that I saw signs limiting something and tried very hard to avoid them, although the signs weren’t at all clear about which vehicles or persons they were restricting and from what……our GPS sent us in circles….any way, I received, 8 months later, 4 tickets for driving in a restricted zone….three on our ill-fated day trip (two of those only 10 minutes apart) and one en route to the rental car agency to return our car! More may be on the way! Yes, the EOM is legit. Each fine is 106 Euros, or $150 x 4! I plan to not be home to sign the registered mail and will not pay the fines. I’ll let you know if I suffer any consequences more serious than I would suffer by paying the fines! I plan to return to Italy, but not Florence – it was our least favorite place in Italy any way (loved Rome, Verona, Venice and Siena!) and with this feudal ticketing system, is now our least favorite place in Europe!
A very helpful website regarding traffic fines in Italy and the EMO is http://www.bella-toscana.com/traffic_violations_italy.htm
I agree, Laura – it is a useful site.
Sorry to hear about your fines. You can try disputing them, as you’ll have understood from ploughing through the comments here, but it does look as though people are simply caught out because they do not know the area, or Italian road signs.
Eyes need to be kept open.
If you have friends who are thinking about coming to Italy – warn them!
Best,
Alex
Everyone,
My girlfriend and I recently received 3 tickets total for various violations from our last day in Rome dated 3/1/2008. Ironically enough, we were driving around trying to find a way to get the rental car back to return it on our last day of vacation! Two of the fines were for “Driving in a limited traffic area w/o authorization (3 mins apart) and the last was for “Circulating on a bus lane registration” – received 7 minutes later.
The 3 registered mail items were received a few months ago, with a creation date of 9/25/2009 at the top of each letter. Almost 1 1/2 years later!! Each fine is about 106 Euro (~320 total).
Anyway, after reading through the details above, as a US resident the Italian government had 567 days to contact us about the fine. But after adding up all of the days between the actual incident (3/1/08 to 9/25/09) – the total elapsed time is 573 days.
If I read the info above correctly….the Italian government did not notify us in the time allowed by law. They’ve continued to send us notices, and last week we received a “Final Reminder” for all three fines via Registered mail.
If the comments above are correct – and these fines are not valid by law (as applies to a non-Italian resident)…..how should we proceed? Is there someone we can contact to have this issue resolved?
If the fines can no longer be enforced because the government did not start drafting the communication to us until after the max deadline of 567 days….is there someone we can contact to have this taken care of? I don’t even know where to start, and I want to make sure to stay on their good side if possible as we’d like to visit again someday!
Thanks in advance for any advice you (or anyone on the site) could offer!
Hi Alex,
I’d like to submit a comment in your “Speeding, and other traffic fines in Italy” post.
It’s quite a lengthy comment and if you decide to add it to the post you might want to edit it seeing that you’re an English teacher and …. English is not my mother tongue.
I too have received a Payment Notice, so-called “courtesy letter” from EMO.
So I had a long look at what I could find on the Net and I know wish I had never done it!
I was astonished at how much information I could find, so many people all over the world writing about those dreaded Italian fines.
Anyway I stumbled on your blog and decided I’d like to contribute considering this “Speeding, and other traffic fines in Italy” post is so …………..short!
Could you give me an e-mail address I could write you ?
Best regards,
Al
Hi Al,
If you want to write to me about these wonderful fines – don’t worry about your English – please use the contact system. Click here to be taken to it: http://www.blogfromitaly.com/contact/
I look forward to this long post becoming even longer. 500+ fine comments, and counting!
Best regards,
Alex
just recieved a fine for 115 euros for driving in Florance it is 224 days since the ‘offence’
I am most shocked as there were 3 cars & i was the only one with a fine & one of the couples have been 5 times to Florence & twice to Pisa and never recieved a fine & also had no idea of the permit scam. It is such a long time that i have no idea which hire company i even used. I am so angry,. What would happen if i refuse any registerd post and ignore letters? I am also tempted to appeal but then dont want to accept liability!
Please help me
I will never return to Florence again i feel like telling them that all the time we were there we were hasseled by street traders & beggers who frightened the children.
It appears that the scam is not fair as only certain cars are picked.
I thank you in advance for your reply
What a great blog! Thanks Alex. I am relieve and disturbed at the same time to know we were not alone in our Pisa fiasco!
The same old song as very many on this forum – received notice from Hertz that we were being charged for them supplying our details to the police – 18 euro. Which we refused to pay. Then we got our letter from the Italians, a full year and 2 months after the violation of moving in a restricted zone took place.
We plan to go back to Italy in a couple of months and hope to use Hertz again as they are the cheapest rental company.
Since all this took place a few years back (2008 was the violation) I am thinking of just ignoring it further and seeing what happens. What I don’t want to happen is for us to go and collect our car from Hertz, only to be told that we owe them the 187.50 euro!
Any thoughts?
Alex,
Sorry, I just re-read the info and realised our fine is null and void as we received notification a year and 2 months after the violation took place. (I was confused as well as I thought it might be be measured from the time the details were received from Hertz).
You mentioned in your blog that you were drafting a form letter that one could send to the relevant authorities in such an instance, saying that the fine in void because notification came after 360 days. Do you have the letter on a link somewhere?
BTW – I think you are great and I am sending loads of good karma your way for all your helpful info.
Susan
Susan – someone has written to me and has given me the impression that the fines may still be valid. I’m checking on this and will reply when I have an answer.
Do note that I am not a lawyer.
Best,
Alex
To F V Serra
EMO (Division of NIVI Credit) is “using” the Italian car rental companies (Italian entities) to obtain the personal data of the car renter who committed the traffic violation during the rental period.
In Italy car rental companies are unable to collect fines on behalf of the police force.
EMO (located in Florence) is officially mandated by an ever increasing number of Italian Municipalities to collect fines from foreign drivers.
There’s nothing illegal up to this point.
But EMO doesn’t have a “ business license” in the US or any other country.
EMO identifies the offender, translates the fine received from the Police and then notifies the offender.
These procedural costs (27-30 € of the total amount of the fine) are not reimbursed to EMO if you don’t pay the fine.
EMO works on a commission basis, around 35% + VAT of the amount of the fine paid (not included the procedural costs).
Even collection agencies (debt collectors) duly established in your country of residence can not collect fines on behalf of Italian municipalities. Milan tried (and failed) to do that in Switzerland last year.
There has to be an agreement in force between Italy and your State of residence.
To GF & Martin
The Italian authorities have five years (Art. 209-Italian Highway Code) to collect fines from the date of the infraction.
This time limit can be interrupted by any official act relevant to the fine!
(But first (for something to happen) the police must send you the fine (Official notification via registered mail) within 360 days from the date of the infraction!)
If you get an official notification, the 5 year time limit starts running from the date you received the registered mail……………….
The multiple ZTL (restricted areas) fines (3 within 3 minutes!!!) are unfair to say the least.
In theory you have the same rights as an Italian resident to dispute the fine.
But an appeal by a foreigner (in such a case) is practically impossible for procedural reasons!
Italian residents have had (partial) success in diminishing their ZTL fines.
So……………….
Yet another. I live in Japan but am from the UK. I just got an email from my parents saying they have received a notice from EMO. I have a 190Euro fine from 13 months ago.
It says if I fail to pay within 20 days then it will go to court and that they could instruct UK bailiffs to coma and possess goods from my UK address (my parents place, I am not a UK resident) I have read EMO cannot do this.
Any ideas how I should play this? Is the 360 day law from the offence or when the police gets the details, this seems to be very unclear. I don’t have a problem paying the fine if I made a mistake but don’t want to get scammed and overpay and certainly don’t want to if I am within my rights not to.
Any advice gratefully received!
Hi Nick G,
If you receive official notification via registered letter, and that is beyond the 360 days, then you can write to the Italian authorities, explain this, and ask then to declare the fine invalid.
I would suggest writing in English – unless you know an Italian who can do it for you.
I do not think that the UK bailiffs will arrive – as of yet, the reciprocal agreement is not operative – once it is, then it is possible that measures may be taken in the UK directly against those who do not pay a fine. The same thing should also be possible in Italy in the case of Italians fined while travelling in the UK.
You might be able to appeal the fine, but it depends what it is for and the circumstances. Speeding fines would be very difficult to contest, as would fines for jumping red lights and driving down bus lanes.
It may be possible to contest some ZTL fines – if several have been issued in the space of a short time on one day, for example – but this too is complex and may not work – in which case, there is the risk that the fine may double.
The simplest thing to do is to pay – as long as you are convinced that the fine is legitimate – and EMO fines generally are – you can check out the bank account via the IBAN number. Not paying is an option some try – but non-payment could lead to problems in the future if you return to Italy.
Hope that helps a little.
Kind regards,
Alex
Hi everyone,
We received a notice of a restricted zone offense in Florence in May of 2009. It was 6 months before we received this notice, and it was not by registered mail. As a matter of fact , we just received another letter from Italy today, again not registered. So we have signed for nothing since returning May of 2009. This last letter offers us a “reduced sum” if we pay it within 60 days of this notice. Seriously! Is this not a scam. Pay quickly and we’ll give you a discount, wait 60 days and now it will be this much. Fortunately we have signed for nothing, so there is no proof of receipt, let alone proof of driving offense. I have no problem paying a traffic violation when I know I’m guilty. In this case, I have no idea what
traffic area had limited circulation, so I’ll take my chances.
U.S. citizens driving in Italy should also note that, according to Italian regulation, if a resident of a non-European Union country (e.g. the United States) violates a traffic law, the violator must pay the fine at the time the violation occurs to the police officer issuing the ticket. If the citizen does not or cannot pay the fine at the time, Italian regulation allows the police officer to confiscate the offender’s vehicle (even if the vehicle is a rental vehicle).
Alex,
Thanks for providing so much information.
Yesterday, I received a final reminder for a traffic violation in Rome for an offence on 5/08/2008 – the first registered notice was posted on 14/01/2010 ((517 days later). Today, I received another notice for a traffic violation, this time in Pisa, for an offence on 26/07/2008 (622 days later).
Do you (or any of your readers) have a template that could be used to dispute the legality of these notices?
I was just about to pay the first, but now my fines are over €200 I’m not so keen!
Thanks,
Richard
BTW, I was in a hire car (registered in Italy) for both violations. Case C-224/00 seems to be about the place of vehicle registration, as opposed to my nationality (British); does this help my case?
Oh, and the first violation was apparently for using a bus lane (struggling to find a road that leads OUT OF Rome); the second for entering a restricted traffic zone in Pisa. I’d feel differently, if I’d been caught speeding, but in both cases I feel a little hard done by. I’m sure the sign-posting was there, but it certainly wasn’t clear … to me, at least!
Thanks for the reply.
I just received a scan of the original letter. I emailed the police in Florence and they forwarded it to EMO as the infraction was in Impruneta.
EMO emailed me and explained about the fine (in perfect English) and then went on to say how the first letter was just a notice and that I would receive a registered letter from the police themselves (I live in Japan so my parents can’t really sign it for me anyway!) They say then I have 60 days to pay the police. It said I had 20 days in the first letter !!
I have replied stating that it is already well over 360 days from the offence and quoted some of the laws above. I am sure EMO can’t cancel it themselves but have asked for details of the Impruneta Police so I can consult them. I looked online but couldn’t find anything so if anyone has any contact details that would be great! At least I have bought some time.
It looks real so if I have to pay then it can’t be helped (18 years driving and my first ticket for anything…funny how these all happen in Italy isn’t it!) But if the law truly is 360 days from the offence then of course I don’t want to pay.
Is this 360 day law from the infraction something recognised by the
police or do they argue that it is 360 days from getting the details of the offenders?
Also there is very little feedback from people who have refused to pay and what follow up was taken. Would be very interested to here some results!
Thanks!
Having spent a few days in Pisa, and having hired a car from Europcar, I too received a couple of these “fines” almost a year after the event.
I researched as much as I could at the time (2006 or 2007), and found people’s opinion divided: as many folk suggested that these are a scam as those who suggest they are genuine.
2 things didn’t ring true, IMHO:
1. The English in the letter was pretty good – but then the address included the spelling GRATE BRITAIN (as if they were trying to make it sound more Italian).
2. The only way to pay was buy international bank transfer. I paid everything else in Italy by credit card: wouldn’t you think this “organisation”, if it is real, would set up such a facility?
I chose NOT to pay, and have heard no more since.
Thanks for all the advice on this blog!
To Nick G
As I’ve already said I’m not a lawyer but “just an ordinary bloke who can read & think”.
Read “Important April 6th 2010 UPDATE” near the top of the page.
The 360 day law (Notification time limit) is from the Offence!
On my first reading of Art. 201,1 (Violations Notification) of the Italian Highway Code (a second one to make sure) it was clear to me what it meant.
Since then I found out that the Aduc (Association for the Rights of Users and Consumers) and the Italian Constitutional Court and others agreed with me (or I agreed with them).
The first “courtesy letter” is Unofficial. They could have given you 20, 30, …60 days to pay.
(You can receive more than one “courtesy letter” before receiving the Official registered letter)
Of course resolving the matter (without the need to send an appeal to the Prefect of Florence) directly with EMO would be the best way.
Yes, EMO should be able to cancel your fine because the 360 day time limit has run out. Get it in writing!
And YES, they have the “faccia tosta” (nerve) to argue that it is 360 days from getting the details of the offenders.
Maybe in your dealings with them you’ll have better luck than I had! I had a heated argument with someone at EMO about this.
If EMO won’t listen to reason then your only option (if you decide to follow the procedure) is to wait for the Official notification and appeal within 60 days.
I could give you contact details for the Impruneta Police but they have outsourced (like Florence & many other municipalities) the collection of fines to EMO.
I doubt that they speak English or that they would answer any email sent to them in English.
Don’t you have a “file number” & an “infraction number” on your notice of payment before notification? With these you can have a look at your “file” on the EMO website.
The Official Notification is sent via registered mail.
Art. 202 al.1 & art. 203 al.3 state that for a number of infractions the offender can pay a “reduced amount” within 60 days or the amount of the fine will more or less double.
On this Official fine you should also find the contact details for the Prefect & Judge of the Peace in case of appeal.
To RichardN & all
EC -v- Italian Republic, case no C-224/00 not relevant because:
– Refers only to offenders of the Italian highway code who are pulled up by the police on the spot.
- Italy has complied to judgment of EC in February 2003
Traffic violation in Rome
The registered notice was posted on 14/01/2010 (517 days later).
So you received it mid-January. More than 60 days have passed since then so it’s too late for an appeal. An appeal now would not be valid.
Traffic violation in Pisa
Notice for an offence on 26/07/2008 (622 days later).
622 days later!?! This must be some kind of record! The cheek they have!
Was it registered? If not you must wait for the Official registered notification to appeal.
You could always try to contact S.E.Pi. S.p.A (SEPi, is it not?) and get your fine cancelled. Get it in writing!
If it was registered remember the 60 day time limit to appeal!
Just one fine for entering a restricted traffic zone in Pisa?
How the hell did you get out without getting at least a second one?
Maybe an other one (or more) are on their way?
Here’s the template you requested:
APPEAL
This appeal is intended for traffic offenders who receive their:
—> Official Notification via Registered Mail over 360 days after the date of the infraction
Preamble:
Appealing to the Prefect is recommended only in cases in which you can not be wrong.
- You were notified more than 360 days after the date of the alleged offence,
- You can establish beyond the shadow of a doubt that your car, at the time of the violation, was on a traghetto headed to Sicily,
- Serious formal error(s) on the fine, ………….
I can not guarantee 100% that a Prefect might not reject a legitimate (> 360 days, within 60 days, registered mail, in Italian) appeal!
Because a Prefect might give a casual glance at an appeal request, grab a pre-printed letter and reject the appeal.
Because rejecting is easier, the appeal can still be “forwarded” to the Judge of the Peace within 30 days.
BUT this is a straightforward decision! Time limit has run out!
Prefects do reject 99% of appeals but really should NOT in such a case. Italians do appeal to the Prefect when their notification time limit has run out.
(In almost all other cases the standard procedure is to appeal to a Justice of the Peace)
This letter to the Prefect is standard, compiled from 9 appeal letters found on the web.
If a Prefect rejects such an appeal, I say: ……… Maybe I’d better not!
1 – You have received a “Notice of payment before notification” !
This so-called “courtesy letter” sent via priority mail has no legal value.
You are unofficially informed of the traffic violation perpetrated.
You can not lodge an appeal. At this stage it wouldn’t even be taken into consideration.
In the event of payment not being made within 20, 60, …. days (whatever term of payment they give you) after receipt of this Notice, the police (or the collection agency) then sends you an official notification via registered letter with proof of receipt.
2 – You have received an “Official Notification” via registered mail !
The total amount of the fine will increase by a few Euros (cost of a registered letter) compared to the Payment Notice.
You are now officially notified.
Not accepting the registered letter does not interrupt possible future proceedings.
Article 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Violations Notification) states that the offenders residing abroad must be notified within 360 days.
This 360 day notification time limit runs from the date of the infraction.
And gets interrupted the day the Italian Postal service sends the Official Notification.
This date should appear on the Notification. (See also time stamp on the envelope)
Thus a Notification sent on the 359th day and received by the offender on the 361st is valid.
This time limit is in no way calculated from the date of the “identification” of the offender as some collection agencies would like you to believe.
This identification date is the date of receipt by the Italian authorities/Collection agencies of your personal data sent by either the car rental company, Foreign Authorities (DVLA) or other Authority.
(This “identification” notion applies only to Italian residents for whom a time limit of 150 days for the notification of the fine runs from the date of the infraction or their identification.)
WARNING !
Even if you are within your rights, the time limit has well and truly run out, you must dispute your fine and appeal to the PREFECT within 60 days from the day of receipt of the Official Notification.
Appealing to the Justice of the Peace is impracticable for a foreigner:
- Since the 1st of January 2010 you are required to pay 38 €,
- You must attend the hearing (or get someone to attend), ………….
Moreover it is not necessary in this case.
You must appeal by writing (registered letter with proof of receipt) in ITALIAN to the Prefect of the Provincia where the infraction was perpetrated.
You’ll find the address of the Prefect on the Notification.
(No need to lodge an appeal if you have already paid the fine !)
———————————————————————————————————————
Al Prefetto di …………….
Raccomandata A.R.
Oggetto: ricorso contro multa notificata oltre 360 giorni dal fatto.
Il/la sottoscritto/a ……………………, residente in…………,titolare della vettura targa (OR titolare del contratto di noleggio della vettura targa)…………..,
premesso che in data ………., ha ricevuto il verbale di accertamento di violazione al codice della strada n. …………, fa notare che la notifica dello stesso è avvenuta oltre 360 giorni dal fatto, estinguendo quindi l’obbligo di pagamento.
Come stabilito dall’art. 201, comma 1 del Codice della strada, nel caso di residenti all’estero, il verbale deve essere notificato entro 360 giorni dall’accertamento, calcolati inequivocabilmente dalla data dell’infrazione.
Per quanto sopra
Chiede che il provvedimento venga annullato.
Allega: fotocopia del verbale notificato.
Date…………… Signature (readable)
———————————————————————————————————————
To the Prefect of ……………
Registered letter with proof of receipt
Concerns : Appeal against fine notified over 360 days after the date of the infraction.
The undersigned………………, resident in ….…(full address)……, owner of the vehicle with registration (license) number (OR holder of the rental agreement of the vehicle with registration (license) number)…………….,
Whereas on date…………, has received the official notification of infraction of the Highway Code number………….., points out that said notofication was received over 360 days after the date of the infraction, thus extinguishing obligation to pay.
As stated in article 201,1 of the Highway Code, for the offenders residing abroad the fine must be notified within 360 days of the ascertainment, calculated unambiguously from the date of the infraction.
Given the above
Asks that the measure be nullified.
Enclosed: copy of notified fine
Date…………… Signature (readable)
On the envelope you can add : Ricorso contro multa al Codice della Strada
Do not forget to enclose a readable copy of the fine .
Keep for at least 5 years a copy of this letter, postal receipt, the fine and the enveloppe (in which the “Official notification” was sent ) –> Time Stamp
An appeal lodged after 60 days is not valid.
Paying the fine means admitting you’re guilty. So no sense in presenting an appeal after.
The Prefect must come to a decision within 210 days, and then has an other 150 to send you his response.
Don’t expect an answer from the Prefect! You might never get one!
Thanks Al.
Hi Alex,
I got 2 fines from the COmune di Milan Polizia Locale today from my holiday in Italy last August. Both fines sum up to about 200eurs which definitely burns a hole in my pocket.
My both offences are driving on the bus lane. Before going to Italy I have read about the restricted zones and was careful not to enter them but still ended up with 2 fines. I didn’t know that cars were restricted on bus lanes. Don’t remember seeing any signs as well.
From your post and all the comments, I also doubt the authenticity of the fines. I understand that the fines will usually come in registered post. My fines came in normal mail and were written in French (I stay in France). Does this mean I will get another official letter via registered mail? And I can only send in my appeal after I get the registered letter? The fine states that I should make payment within 20 days.
Is there anyway to make an appeal or to waiver one of the fines?
I am not an EU citizen and will be leaving France for good in about 2 months. Am really tempted to just ignore the fines.
Thanks for taking the time and trouble to reply. Seems like these italian fines have really got ten alot of people.
Just curious as to what the ramifications would be to ignoring the fines, either by informal notice from EMO NIVI (of which I have five!) or by registered mail (which of course, I still await), with respect to a non EU Citizen attempting to return to Italy. I am Canadian.
I anticipate returning to Italy within two years. We loved it that much. However, as a tourist, I do not want to be stopped at the airport and turned away, or forced to pay outstanding fines. To be fined for trying to find my way around Milan at midnight, or thereabouts, where street signs directing you in the PROPER direction are apparently scarcer than those prohibiting certain actions, is highly unfair, and contrary to all things tourist. I understand all arguments and advice regarding paying or not (I too am not a lawyer, but suffice to say I work in an equally “obvious” aspect of law…hence my questioning…) but what concerns me most is what awaits one at the border, when we return. With the Italian custom of photocopying passports at all hotels, and submitting them to the local police on a daily basis, it seems entirely possible that one might receive a knock on one’s door one evening as well. How likely are either to happen…does anyone know?
Thanks in advance, and thanks for all the other information…a lot of work, obviously!
We have also been subjected to an ‘Italian’ fine. Our fine was sent to us this week – 100 Euros. This was for a visit to Pisa in June 2008 !!!.
Reading the blogg tonight, I haven’t seen anyones fine older than ours. We are unsure whether to pay it. We may return to Pisa and hire a car again and do not want hassle when this happens.
We took the paperwork to the police station in the UK who advised us to contact the Italian embassy. We are not even sure which hire car company we used it was that long ago.
Hi Su,
Have you received the fine by regular mail?
If so you can try and contact S.E.Pi. S.p.A. (Società Entrate Pisa S.p.A.) sepi-pisa@legalmail.it and get your fine cancelled (in writing).
Explain to them kindly but forcefully that Article 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Violations Notification) states very clearly that offenders residing abroad must be notified within 360 days.
AND that this 360 day notification time limit runs from the date of the infraction.
AND absolutely NOT from the day they finally decided to inquire with the car hire company about the drivers’ contact details.
If they do not reply I wouldn’t waste too much time.
If it was registered (and if you want to follow the legal procedure) you have to appeal in Italian to the Prefect of Pisa within 60 days.
Read above my two comments: April 29, 2010 at 12:56 am and April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am.
Al
Hi all
How annoying is this all and as so many have said how many 1000s have Italians put off ever returning again thanks for so many now being scared to drive in the country.
My boyfriend and I were in Tuscny September 2009. A month or so Europcar charged us 40Euros for adminstrative costs relating to a car fine. Now (9 months later!) we have receied a latter, in English, stating we were caught speeding 20k over the allowed limit outside Florence and asked to pay 190Euros. I doubt this was the case as we were enjoying crusing and taking in the scnery and would not have speeded.
Anyway. The letter was sent standard, not signed for so they have no proof we have it.
We are both tempted to ignore it. However we will be returning to Tuscany later this year but this time driving in our car from UK. So does anyone know not having to go through Italian airport/hire a car there- would these reduce our chances of getting stopped/caught at all?
Many people in the last few years said they would take a gamle and not pay so Im amazed at the lack of response here from people who have not paid fines to see what, if anything happened to them, both in the UK and when going back to Italy?
I was fined a train fare in Germany that I never paid, they took my passport and Ive since been able to enter there without any issues. It seems the Italian methods of chasing fines with such large time having passed since it was committed would they really be totally on the ball if we happened to have our details passed to the police etc?
Hi Jessica,
Sounds as though you’ve received one of the notification of a fine notification – which arrives before the actual fine.
I know this situation is costing Italy tourists, but the number of people being fined is minimal compared to the 70 million people who visit Italy each year. Before Italy’s government does anything the situation has to become much worse. No consolation, I know.
As for people not posting about not paying, this is not a surprise. I don’t think it would be a great idea to mention this – and the Italian cops might just confiscate this site and charge me which inciting people to break the law. This would not be good.
I do not condone non-payment, but the decision is yours. Please read the other comments to get an idea as to what might happen if you do not pay and return to Italy.
You could try appealing the fine, but this is not simple unless you write Italian very well, and could lead to the fine being doubled too.
The best thing to do is to contact your local MP, MEP, as well as the AA, RAC, newspapers, etc and hope someone has a go at making signs clearer.
Best,
Alex
Hi Alex
I really appreciate your response…
I have since dug around a bit and discovered that in terms of returning to Italy, by car, we are 90% likely to be OK.
As Italy is in the Schengen Agreement it seems we might not even have to show our passport at all, unless random spot checks?
Also someone above stated Italys rule about scanning in passports at hotels.
I have since found out, while thisis the case it is sent to the State police tourism office and fines are dealt with by the city issuing the fines, town hall, not the Italian government., so they both are a seperate department. So the police arriving at your hotel to arrest you will not happen (relating to unpaid fines that is!).
Also- they only need 1 passport per room, so I will give mine, not associated with the fine, and not my partners.
I think the only thing is we could be chase by the agencies hired by Italy over HERE. However Ill wait till the recorded letter comes and also, we are moving in about 8 months anyway, cancelling the card we booked the hire car on etc- so I think given this it might be quite hard to chase ous, beyond 8 months.
I just find it so appalling that they can treat people in this way that I want to make a stand!
Heres hoping….
I just got 2 fines in dated from 14 June 2008!
Thanks for the appeal template, Sending it off today to them
With apologies to Sean Connery “Fuori di qui si diego bastardi”
Hi Alex
Can you advise please?
On 4th April 2009 I went to Pisa with my family picked up the reserved car from Hertz at the airport, following day (it was Saturday) we went to Florence parked the car in an underground car park, and handed the key to the car park attendant and after walking around the city center all day, I picked the car up drove back to Pisa and next day back to London. Few months later Hertz charged my credit card account (about 30 Euro) for going through congestion area in Florence in the morning and afternoon. I notified my credit card company about and said I know nothing about this. Hertz refunded money soon after BUT then came a letter from Florence Municipal ….. about the same violation. I did say I did not have the car keys at the time etc. Now the case is going through the appeal. IF the worse happens and I lose the appeal, can I just forget about it and since they asked for 99 Euro for each violation and they said it would be doubled if I lose the appeal. I have no intention of going back Italy again.
Thanks
Yousef
Hi Yousef,
The time of the Florence ‘offence’ was while you were walking around the city – is what I think I’ve understood.
In which case, you were not in the car, which, technically, should not have been moving. Now, I have no idea, but it sounds a little as though the car park attendant or someone else, took your hire car out and about while you were walking around Florence. It sounds strange, but it is possible. Do you have any receipt for the car park? If so, I’d write back to the Florence authorities and explain the situation. I would imagine that in the circumstances they would cancel the fine. Writing a letter, in English, which explains the situation should work – mention the name of the car park too (this will be on a receipt – if you have one).
There is a risk that they will double the fine, but if you have a receipt with a time on it, you should be OK. Nothing is guaranteed though.
If you have no receipt, then what you say about leaving your keys with someone cannot be easily proved, in which case the fine could double.
With regard to two letters about the same violation, are you sure they refer to the same violation or to two different violations? This happens – check the reference numbers and see if they are different.
Hope this helps – but note I am not a lawyer.
Best of luck,
Alex
Thank you Alex,
I did not keep the receipt and I guess I have to expect the worse (ie paying double) even though I explained everything in English.
Thanks again
Yousef
Hi there! I was wondering about bus fines in rome? Two of us got a fine of 50euro each which now is 100 euros each, as we didn’t have enough cash on us to pay the fine on the spot. we inadvertently got on a bus without a ticket. one of us is a eu citizen (germany) living permanently in the us, the other is a us citizen. The officer was rude, barely spoke english to explain anything. I had asked him for a english copy of what we were signing..he said “no important”…
Hi Daniela,
Sorry to hear you got caught. It’s not always clear how Italy’s buses work to foreigners, I know.
Before paying up, you could try writing an apologetic letter, in English, to the bus company – they might let you off, but so many people try to work the system, I doubt whether they will listen to you. You never know.
At the end of the day though, a quick trip around the internet would have helped you understand how Rome’s buses etc work – and this would have saved you €100 each.
Good luck,
Alex
Hi Alex,
I have been reading your blog with interest since the 2 traffic infringements came through my letterbox this morning.
I visited Florence on the 23rd Apr 09 in a hire car rented from Europecar, and due to a lost wallet issue had to drive into central Florence chasing after a taxi.
Both traffic offences were committed within 10 minutes of each other on the 29th Apr 09.
On the EMO website there is a letter which I believe was from the hire car dated the 16th Sep 09 saying I had hired the car, and a stamp saying that they received this on the 19th Sep 09 (146 days after the offence)
The Notice of Payment Before the Notification was issued on the 28th May 2010, over a year after the original offences.
From reading above can you clarify how the system works with regards to whether this is now too old for them to persue.
Is it correct they have 150 days to find out who hired the car and and then a further 360 days to issue the notice?
Or is the 360 day rule for foreign nationals for the whole process?
I am a bit confused…
Incidently the 2 fines are for 120 euors each
Many thasnks, Tim
Tim,
“Is it correct they have 150 days to find out who hired the car and and then a further 360 days to issue the notice?
No, it’s not correct!
To be accurate what EMO says on their website (FAQ n°17 http://www.emo.nivi.it/Faq.aspx) is that they have 360 days “from the date of receipt of the personal data sent by the car rental company”.
Absolutely no time limit to find out who hired the car!
Which means that they can decide to identify the offender whenever it suits them!
Why not after 4, 8, 17, ………….months?
What is important is that Art. 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Violations Notification) states (unambiguously) that offenders residing abroad must be notified (officially) within 360 days, calculated from the DATE of the infraction.
Whether you were driving your own car or a rented car is not relevant!
The Notice of Payment Before the Notification you have received is Unofficial.
You can try and contact EMO and get your fine cancelled (in writing).
If and when you receive the Official Notification via registered mail you must dispute your fine and appeal in Italian to the PREFECT within 60 days.
You’ll find a template in my April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment.
Please read “Important April 6th 2010 UPDATE” near the top of the page and my comments on April 29, 2010 at 12:56 am, April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am and May 8, 2010 at 9:35 pm.
Al
I emailed the email address supplied with the fine earlier today, and have just received the response, which I thought you might be interested to see:
Dear Sir,
The centre of Pisa is a limited area, in order to access this area you
must have a special authorization.
All the cars that enter without this authorization are fined because many
streets of the centre have got a camera that makes a photo of the plate of
the car.
These streets are marked by international road signs.
Remember that sings are the same in all the country of EUROPE.
In attachment a copy of the photo.
According to the Italian Road Traffic Code it’s possible to notify the
fine to the lessee of the car within 360 days from the date on which the
Police Office receive your name and address from your Rental.
We are sorry but we aren’t able to delete your fine.
The document that you’ve received is a legal act produced by a police
officer, sent according to the Italian Highwaycode and within the terms
permitted.
We’re sorry but it’s impossible to pay it by credit card or online.
You can pay by bank transfer:
• the name and the address of our bank are :
CASSA DI RISPARMIO LUCCA PISA LIVORNO
AGENZIA 1 – CORSO ITALIA 4 -56125 PISA
• Account number is 77
• the name and the address of the recipient are:
SEPI SPA COMUNE DI PISA SANZIONI AMMINISTRATIVE
PIAZZA DEI FACCHINI 16, 56125 PISA
• INTERNATIONAL COORDINATES:
- IBAN IT64G0620014021000000000077
- BIC (swift code): BPALIT3LXXX
Please write on the reason of the payment the number of the form of the
fine, so we will be able to identify the payment.
It’s the surest and quickest way.
If you have problems you can send a cheque payable to SEPI SPA COMUNE DI
PISA SANZIONI AMMINISTRATIVE and you must send it to Polizia Municipale -
Piazza dei Facchini 16 56125 Pisa Italy(please send in attachment a copy
of your fine).
If you want try to cancel the fine you can submit an appeal, in Italian
language, to one of the following authorities within 60 days from the date
on which you received the fine:
* Prefect of Pisa, writing to “Piazza G. Mazzini, 56125 Pisa (italy)
* Justice of Peace of Pisa, writing to “via Palestro 39, 56125 Pisa (italy)
Your appeal must be sent with registered mail.
At your disposal for further information
Best Regards
On Mar, 1 Giugno 2010 11:43 am, felix middleton wrote:
>
> Hello
>
>
> My name is Felix Middleton and I have received a letter from you
> regarding offense Nr. of form: 1362520. This relates to a fine of 119
> euros on April 21st 2009 in Pisa.
>
> Having spoken to you, you have told me that you have 360 days to inform
> me of the fine, from the time that you receive notification from Hertz,
> the hire company I used to hire the car reg DV829ML.
>
> From what I have read under European law if you are a European Union
> resident and you have received a fine more than 210 days after an
> offense, then a fine is not enforceable. I have been advised to quote
> case no C-224/00:
>
> Failure by a Member State to fulfil its obligations – Article 6 of the EC
> Treaty (now, after amendment, Article 12 EC) – Difference in treatment of
> persons contravening the highway code according to the place of
> registration of their vehicle – Proportionality.
>
> I have been advised to speak to my lawyer and if necessary contact my MEP
> to discuss this further due to the time that has elapsed since the time
> of the offence.
>
> Please do not hesitate to contact me at this email address.
>
>
> I look forward to hearing from you,
>
>
> Felix Middleton
>
Felix,
EC -v- Italian Republic, case no C-224/00 not relevant because:
– Refers only to offenders of the Italian highway code who are pulled up by the police on the spot.
- Italy has complied to judgment of EC in February 2003
BUT they’re misinforming you about the 360 day time limit!
Art. 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Violations Notification) states (unambiguously) that offenders residing abroad must be notified (officially) within 360 days, calculated from the DATE of the infraction.
Please read “Important April 6th 2010 UPDATE” near the top of the page and my comments on April 29, 2010 at 12:56 am, April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am, May 8, 2010 at 9:35 pm and June 2, 2010 at 2:58 am.
Al
Alex,
I too received two notices by post today (02/06/10) from Pisa regarding the restricted traffic zone which occurred on 17/05/2009. I had hired a car from Hertz. They arrived in separate envelopes with a yellow detachable card on the rear of the envelope with an addressee of SEPI Service SRL. The postmark on the envelopes is 22/05/2010. I did not sign for these letters as they were put through the letter box. The letter head is Municipality of Pisa. Working on the basis that the postmark is 22/05/2010, then that is more than a year from the offence when it was posted!
Fair enough if I have violated traffic rules and I would expect to pay, just like the London Congestion Zone.
However, just to clarify a few points:-
1) Are the detachable yellow cards the system of Registered Mail which should be detached and returned by the Royal Mail back to SEPI? As stated, if they are, I have not signed anything so technically I have not been officially notified (as far as proof goes).
2) Working on the dates, surely I am over the 360 day limit now?
3) If the yellow cars are not the system of Registered Mail, will something else arrive?
Like many others on here, I am slightly annoyed at the time delay and it has certainly tarnished my memories of what was a good holiday.
Alastair,
1) Yes, I believe you have received two “Official Notifications” via registered mail with proof of receipt!
Is it written “A.R.” on the front of the card?
A.R. means “Avviso di ricevimento” –> “Proof of receipt”.
Do the detachable yellow cards look like this? http://www.poste.it/postali/stampati/avviso_ricevimento_bilingue.shtml
Odd that your postman made such a blunder!
In such a case, if you were an Italian resident, you’d receive an official note informing you that you can collect the registered mail at the post office.
If, for any reason you don’t pick it up (you’re on a four month holiday improving your sun tan on Copacabana beach or you’re refusing to accept the registered mail), you then receive a second official note.
After ten days you’re considered to be legally notified.
I don’t know how things work with “international registered mail” but the fact of the matter is that your postman can’t even send the detachable yellow cards back to SEPI in Pisa whether you’ve signed for them or not!
2) Yes, you’re over the 360 day time limit!
You’re right. The relevant date is 22/05/2010, the day the two notifications were sent from Italy. Furthermore 360 days is not 365 days (a year) even if it’s of no consequence for you, the two infractions having occurred on 17/05/2009.
3) Someday you’ll probably receive the two notifications (via registered mail) again.
There are no definite rules about this!
Also read my comment on April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am.
Al
Alex,
The two detachable yellow cards that I have in my possesion are exactly like the ones on your link above. Furthermore, I checked with my local postie who confirmed I had not signed for anything official today.
I am grateful that you confirm I am over the 360 day time limit and as far as I am now concerned, they can poke it. Their inefficiency is not my problem.
I am a police officer in the UK. If I want to know a driver’s details, even of a hire car, it does not take me over a year to find out who was driving, even with the Data Protection Act. Simply fill out a form, get an inspector to sign it and send it to the relevant hire company. All details furnished pretty quickly.
I shall now await the the next “summons” from Pisa and see what happens. In any case, I am not paying it now in principle – it may make the Italians clean up their act a little and be more efficient!
Oh, and just an additional little snippet of info – my two letters are dated 14/05/2010 so that is still outside the 360 day limit. Took them eight days to post them!
Alastair,
My name is Al, not Alex.
(Please READ “Important April 6th 2010 UPDATE” near the top of the page and my comment on April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am).
I’m responsible for the reply I gave you, especially if for some reason or other, now or at a later date, you would be displeased with the response.
Eight days between the date on the notifications and the date on the envelopes!?!
Should be the same dates. That’s why one must always keep the enveloppe for the postmark.
But Italian bureaucracy is what it is! As you say, they could be more efficient.
And yes, you’re quite right about the date 14/05/2010 on the notifications being outside the 360 day time limit.
Al (not Alex Roe)
P.S./ By the way I’m not a lawyer, just someone who speaks Italian and spent a “little” time on the web exploring this issue.
A British postman can be unreliable too!
Al,
Apologies for getting your names mixed up – especially as I am also called Al as well!
If 360 days is the law, it’s the law – it’s as simple as that. 360 days is more than ample time to identify a driver (foreign or not) and send out paperwork in time. As you know, in the UK we have set times to send out NIP’s (Notices of Intended Prosecution), speeding tiickets and even summary offences. If we stray out of those times, then it’s our hard luck.
Maybe I am just being cynical (you tend to be when you are a police officer), but is this a case of milking the tourist who does not quite understand Italian law and making them a soft target?! I wonder….hmmmmmm.
Great blog by the way
NEED IMMEDIATE HELP!!!!
Wow, this blog is exactly what I was looking for…… I am in a situation and need someone, ANYONE’s help…….
I was in Italy on a 2 week trip last March (March 2009). While in Rome for 4 days, a friend of mine and I decided to rent vespas. I did not have any issues with the polizia while riding. I obeyed all the traffic laws as best I could and was only stopped once for riding on a street near the Colosseum on Sunday (the officer let me go with no problem). This year, 2010, I returned from a vacation in April (the first week of April) to a heap of mail that had FOUR letters in there from the Polizia Municipale Roma. Apparently I had violated four traffic laws!!!!! I had no idea that I was doing anything wrong. On the papers there was a website with an access code and password. I logged in and there were pictures of my friend and I riding the vespas!!!!!
Needless to say, the fines were outrageous. I believe each offense was 100 Euro. I am not a poor man, but that is almost $500!!! My friend and I both agreed that we were not going to pay and just let the issue fade away. Well, I have received TWO notices from the US Post Office as of today requesting that I sign for a certified letter from the Polizia Municipale Roma. I have no been able to make it over to the post office to pick it up, but I will tomorrow.
Here is the situation…..I do NOT want to pay these fines as I am not a citizen of Italy and do not plan on visiting or moving there anytime soon. Of course I loved it, but I don’t see any travel plans being put together to return. Ideally I would like to resolve the issue without having to pay by any means necessary. If that means I have to contact them, so be it. I’ll call, write a letter, email, whatever I have to do. I just dont want to pay the stupid fine.
I am beggining to get worried that this can be an international issue? Can the Italian government issue a warrant for my arrest and the US authorities follow through with arresting me??????
SOMEONE PLEASE HELP ASAP!!!!!
Hi Brandon,
This is Alex, not, Al – who very kindly helps out here. Al speaks much better Italian than I, and has carried out lots of research into the fining of foreign motorists issue. Al is foreign too.
Now, getting fined for scooting around Rome on a Vespa is not a great end to a great Roman holiday, alas.
Technically, annoying though it is, you should pay up. The cameras merciless. You don’t say which traffic laws you have been accused of breaking. There is a small chance that an appeal may reduce the amount of the fines.
I don’t imagine whoever rented you the scooter warned about Roman restricted traffic zones – and even if they did, you’d probably have seen many other scooters doing just the same as you, I’ll willing to bet.
Coughing up is the best option probably – appeals against the electronic eyes are difficult. If you do not pay, it is unlikely that you will find an Italian cop or the FBI on your doorstep brandishing an international arrest warrant. Unless they wanted to make an example of you, which probably would damage Italy’s image as a tourist destination massively. And committing a few offences on a Vespa in Rome hardly puts you into the same league as an international drug dealer. Then there would be the huge costs involved – all just to collect several hundred Euros.
As I have pointed out above many times in my replies, the only potential problem which could arise would be someone catching up with you if you come to Italy again in the next 5 years. I have not heard of this happening, but that does not mean it has not.
Not paying is an option, but the decision is yours. I cannot and will not condone non-payment for reasons given at the start of this article some 550 comments above.
What you can do is tell anyone you know, and even those you don’t, that they have to be careful when they come to Italy – and the romantic trip around Rome on a Vespa can and up leaving one with a bad after taste, as you have unfortunately discovered.
For the record, this is the first case of Vespa fines I have heard since writing this way back in September 2006.
Best regards,
Alex (not Al!)
PS ‘Alex’, me, is the guy who runs BlogfromItaly.com – ‘Al’ helps out on the fine front – Thank you Al!.
Brandon,
Those reckless tourists wandering aimlessly around Rome on their vespas!
Rome will send two Carabinieri in full uniform to flush you out of your hiding place!
And to think that the Italian taxpayer will have to suffer the consequences for your casualness!
From what I understand:
- The four traffic violations took place in March 2009,
- In March-April 2010 you received the “unofficial” fines sent via “normal mail”,
- The official notifications (you’re about to sign for) were probably sent from Rome at the end of May.
March 2009 –> May 2010 ==> The 360 day notification time limit has run out.
Article 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Violations Notification) states that the offenders residing abroad must be notified within 360 days.
This 360 day notification time limit runs from the date of the infraction.
If you’re really ready to write a letter (and if you want to follow the legal procedure) you have to appeal in Italian to the Prefect of Rome within 60 days from the date of receipt of the official notifications.
You’ll find the address of the Prefect on the Notification.
An appeal template is included in my April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment.
Read carefully “Summary of How to Deal with Fines received while in Italy” & “Important April 6th 2010 UPDATE” near the top of the page and my comment on April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am.
Al (not Alex)
Great work guys and praise for all your efforts.
Point of clarification to Al’s 3 June 2010 ,12.53 pm posting regarding the 365 day ruling . Is this from the day of the offence to the date on the envelope of the second registered letter plus 10 days as on 4 months holiday and no one home?
Reading this forum I am wondering why some Euro employed Lawyer/ MEP has not taken the initiative and clarified the cross border legality and correct enforcement procedures as most people seem to feel threatened and take the easy route and cough up rather than receive the dreaded kiss. How can a motoring infringement be classified as a “Criminal” offence in one EU member state and not in the other. Its nonsensical. and will the British officials arrest and shackle its citizens for extradition to Italy as a criminal for incarceration and punished with pasta and spaghetti.
I have just got back here from NZ and was touring Italy last summer with my daughter who hired the vehicle. I was a named driver and we went separate ways where I took the car.
Just learned she has had several credit card hits and fines are coming in but not the registered ones. Appears she has been judged guilty of a criminal offence without cause simply by signing the agreement which is totally unfair as I was the vehicle user. She feels threatened and just wants to pay up in fear of the consequences to her career
It appears their coffers are lined by basic intimidation of foreigners and they are taking advantage of the fact that people are deterred from making an appeal due to an alien, complex and geographically distant judicial system which we should not be subjected to.
I am a international Nomad without a credit card or care and am curious of how best to play this and suggest my daughter put me entirely in the blame loop if that can be done. Any ideas?
Paul,
I wouldn’t feel « threatened » (for my career) for a few traffic violations in Italy.
You probably drove through a ZTL (limited traffic area) on more than one occasion..
The 360 day (NOT 365) Violations Notification time limit is from the day of the offence to the date on the envelope of the Official fine sent via registered mail.
Usually people sign for their registered mail.
The “+10 days from the second “postal notice” warning you that a registered letter is waiting for you at the post office” was just my explanation to Alastair (who was left with the detachable cards to be sent back to Italy) of how an Italian resident is considered to be officially notified even if he can’t be found (no one home) or refuses to sign the registered fine. For foreign residents……
“Judged guilty of a Criminal Offence” ? For a traffic violation? Likely a ZTL infringement?
Is there more to this than just a pecuniary sanction???
Your daughter is receiving the fines because she was the holder of the rental agreement. As such (Art.196 Italian Highway Code), I think she’s also responsible for paying the fines. So, putting the blame on you would be of no use.
Should you choose to pay it’s of no consequence whether the fines are in your name or your daughter’s name, unless the violation is so serious that it warrants, for instance, the loss of your driving license for six months in Italy. In such a case you shouldn’t drive a car in … Italy.
If need be you can always inform the police that you were the one driving the car.
You do not have to convince me about the practical impossibility of presenting an appeal!
That’s also why, ……………….
I would wait for the registered fines. Read my April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment.
Al (not Alex)
I to have had two recorded letters with the A.R cards on (I still have them) claiming that I was driving in an unauthorized area in Florence, both fines are for 109euro and are 13 mins apart in different roads.
We where going back to Italy this year but this has put me off, so they loose 2000 odd euros that I would of spent, the fine which I would not pay anyway as the signs and road markings are not in English and the World Cup
Bob..
PS: are you saying that I should receive another recorded delivery and that has to be within the 360 days?
If you still have the detachable yellow (A.R.) cards, you have not signed for the registered fines and EMO can’t prove that you’ve been officially informed.
I would think that you’ll probably receive them again ( no guarantee
) and they must come within the 360 days.
Article 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Violations Notification) states that the offenders residing abroad must be (“officially”) notified within 360 days from the date of the infraction.
Remember that even if they come after 360 days you still have to dispute them and appeal to the Prefect.
Al (not Alex)
I have had a speeding ticket from 2009 in Tuscany. The time on the notice is different by 7 minutes to the time on the photograph – does this constitute enough for a successful appeal or should I just tell?? My 360 day limit will be up in a few days so in any event I have a little bit of time before either telling EMO or appealing.
Jeff,
In my view, I wouldn’t rely on the slight discrepancy between the time on the notice and the time on the photograph.
It does not “constitute enough” to dispute the fine, the speeding violation has well and truly been committed.
From what I understand you’ve just received the “unofficial” notice of payment.
If the 360 day notification time limit will really be up shortly I would wait for the official registered fine and ………… try & convince EMO that their theory about having 360 days to notify from the date of your “identification” is …….. total rubbish!
If you happen to be successful, please, do tell us!
Otherwise appeal to the Prefect within 60 days from the day of receipt of the official Notification.
Read “Important April 6th 2010 UPDATE” near the top of the page and my April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (an appeal template is included) comment.
But it seems to me you’ve already read Alex’s post on “Speeding, and ….” carefully.
Al (not Alex)
Thank you for your helpful comments. I am not sure if the piece of paper I got is the real thing or the informal notice that you refer to. I is headed “violation of the Highway Code” and “Report” and says that I have 60 days from receiving the violation report or notification to appeal etc. Do they need to have the “avviso di ricevimento” for service of the notice to be valid ?
Jeff,
It seems to me that you have received the Official Notification (violation of the Highway Code notice), the informal notice is headed “ Notice of payment before notification”.
The official fine must mention that you can appeal to the Prefect of … or the Judge of the Peace of … within 60 days …
It also usually states “in case of non-payment after 60 days, the liable amount will increase to …”
To be valid it must have been sent as a registered letter with proof of receipt (“avviso di ricevimento”) and within 360 days (not 365) from the date of the infraction.
Your postman should have asked you to sign for it or left a note asking you to pick it up at the post office.
Read comment on June 3, 2010 at 12:53 am.
Al (not Alex)
I have just this morning (28/6/2010) received a letter from Europcar with a traffic violation dated 19/10/2007. On checking my credit card statement the money has already been deducted. Are they allowed to do this so long after the alleged
violation?
Ian P
Ian,
The money deducted is almost certainly an “administration fee” (around 18 to 55€ per fine) following a request from the Italian authorities to Europcar to obtain the personal data of the car renter who committed the traffic violation.
When you signed the rental contract in 2007 you agreed to pay for the admin charge.
You’ll probably receive over the next few weeks (months) the actual fine.
Furthermore a fine for a 28-month-old traffic violation is absolutely not valid.
Art. 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Violations Notification) states that offenders residing abroad must be notified within 360 days, calculated from the date of the infraction.
Read “Important April 6th 2010 UPDATE” near the top of the page and my comment on April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am.
I would contest my credit card charge and get my money back because the fine (for an alleged violation) is not legally valid, thus the associated admin fee must therefore be equally invalid.
Europcar should ask the Italian Authorities (or the collection agencies) to be refunded for wasting their time with invalid fines!
These collection agencies (acting on behalf of the municipal police) keep on sending these invalid fines (over 360 days) because they expect the foreign offenders (“suckers”) to pay blindly.
After all there’s a 35% commission at stake here!
Al (not Alex)
Hey Al and Alex! This blog has been a big help in researching my numerous traffic fines from Florence. I was studying there (as a US resident) in the spring of 2009. While i was there my friends and I rented Vespas on numerous occasions. Anyway, long story short, i have received over 25 tickets for driving on the street where i lived, turns out it was a bus lane only and I never saw the sign. I understand the 360 day rule and ti turns out that only 5 of the 25+ tickets were sent within that 360 day period….the rest came over 400 days later. I have payed the ones that came in time….now, do i still need to appeal the additional tickets or do i just do nothing (since there were over 360 days)? Has anyone done this? Appealed a ticket over 360? Has it been successful? Will this appeal renew the fine and therefore negate the 360 day rule?
Hey Bryan,
Over 25 tickets! No half measures for you (and your friends)!
READ above my April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (an appeal template is included) comment.
You’ll find most answers to your questions!
I assume that:
1 – The 20+ tickets remaining were really sent over 360 days after the date of the infraction,
2 – These 20+ tickets are all Official Notifications sent by registered mail,
3 – You’re still in time (60 days or less from the day(s) of receipt of these official 20+ tickets) to appeal.
YES! If you want to follow the legal procedure you absolutely have to appeal in Italian to the Prefect of Florence within those 60 DAYS. (Not a day after)
Those tickets (over 360 days) are perfectly valid unless you appeal!
A Prefect in his right mind can only do one thing, and that is to accept such a legitimate appeal (> 360 days, within 60 days, registered mail with proof of receipt, in Italian)
If, by any chance, he should reject your appeal, then …(fill in the gap)…him!
Now, to your last question:
1 – If you loose an appeal to a Prefect the fine roughly doubles. If you don’t pay or don’t appeal, the fine will double anyway.
2 – Negate the 360 day rule??? How???
The prescription time limit is 5 years. This means that the Italian authorities have five years to collect fines from the date of the infraction.
This time limit can be interrupted by any official act relevant to the fine!
BUT the police must send (to non-Italian residents) the fine (Official notification via registered mail) within 360 days (notification time limit) from the date of the infraction!
If they don’t, you can appeal.
So now the 5 year prescription time limit runs from the day they sent you the official fine (official act relevant to the fine).
If you appeal the 5 years will run from the day of receipt of your appeal……….
If I were you I would send one letter of appeal (see appeal template):
Modifications (plural for 20+ tickets!) in caps:
“Il sottoscritto”
“Oggetto: ricorso contro multE notificatE”
“titolare deI contrattI di noleggio deGLI SCOOTER targHE 1, 2, 3, ….”
“premesso che in data 1ST DATE, 2ND DATE, …, ha ricevuto I verbalI di accertamento di violazione al codice della strada n. N° 1ST FINE, N° 2ND FINE, …, fa notare che lE notificHE deGLI stessI SONO avvenutE oltre 360 giorni daI fattI, …….”
“Chiede che I provvedimentI vengaNO annullatI”
“Allega: fotocopiE deI verbalI notificatI”
Do not forget to enclose readable copies of the fines.
If you still have questions, ………
Al (not Alex)
I haven’t gotten yet, but expect to get a couple of fines for entering the ZTL of Rome Center and Trastavere. I kind of knew about the ones in FLORENCE and that they were mostly in day time hours. I had no idea about the ones in Rome.
After reading up here about handicap exceptions, I am curious if this applies to US citizens. My wife does have a registered handicap blue sticker here in the US.
Does a copy of this suffice for the fines to be removed?
I saw on the EMO site that you could provide proof of the handicap sticker, but wasn’t clear if that was only for an Italian handicaped sticker?
Does the handicapped sticker method work for US citizens?
I haven’t received yet, but expect to recieve two from Rome.
My wife does have a legitimate handicap and sticker here in US?
Hi Michael,
As I understand the situation regarding handicapped stickers, your nationality should not matter. Send EMO a copy of the sticker.
In your case, I suspect EMO will take steps to have the fines annulled.
Best of luck,
Alex
Hi. This is a very informative site. I have a similar problem. Rented a car with Europcar in December 2007 while in Italy. I got fined in Florence for driving in the inner city and paid “administration fees” automatically deducted from my credit card.
Today, 13 July 2010, I received a letter from the EMO that I must pay the fines within 20 days. Since it has been over 2 and a half years since the incident, my question is “should I just ignore it?”
PS. I am a Thai citizen and do not live in the EU.
Your advice is greatly appreciated!
Nile,
EMO purposely misleads foreign tourists (FAQ n°17 http://www.emo.nivi.it/Faq.aspx) when they claim shamelessly that they have 360 days from the date of their identification to notify the fine.
Article 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Violations Notification) states very clearly that this 360 day notification time limit runs from the date of the traffic violation.
They give you 20 days to pay, this means that you received the informal notice (Notice of payment before notification) and that you can’t lodge an appeal at this stage.
I would write to EMO (infoemo-en@nivi.it) and ask them when I was “identified”.
(When were the “admin fees” deducted from your credit card?)
If the identification was made before July 2009 (over 360 days before the date on the notice) the fines are not valid even by their own (wrong) standards.
If so, EMO will cancel your fines.
If not, you can try and explain to them forcefully that the 360 day notification time limit doesn’t run from the day they finally decided to inquire with the car hire company about the drivers’ contact details. I wouldn’t be too optimistic, they’re pigheaded!
You can also appeal to the Prefect within 60 days from the day of receipt of the official(s) Notification(s).
READ “Important April 6th 2010 UPDATE” near the top of the page and comments on April 29, 2010 at 12:56 am, April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am and June 28, 2010 at 9:51 pm.
At any rate, make sure…. to give EMO your best regards from…… beautiful Thailand (or wherever you live)!
Al (not Alex)
Appreciate the information. On May 18, 2009 I left a Villa I had stayed at in the Tuscany countryside and went to Florence to the hotel I was staying at in the historic district. I gave the hotel car tag information, dropped off the family and drove a short distance to return the rental car. Had some difficulty finding the rental garage but finally found it and returned the car. Today July 20, 2010, 14 months later, I received two separate Notice of Payment Before the Notification for “The vehicle circulated in limited traffic area without authoriztion” each notice seeking 133.03 euros. Reading through this site it appears that this is beyond the 365 day limit. Will I need to wait for the official registered notice and then do something?
JP,
The ZTL (Limited Traffic area) policy in Florence is the following:
“Tourists in cars who need to travel within the ZTL to reach their accommodation facilities or a garage can obtain a temporary access permit […] In order to obtain this permit, the number plate of the car concerned should be given to the relevant hotel […]
This permit will be issued for a maximum of two hours for baggage transport purposes and, therefore, only on the arrival and departure dates […] For the rest of their stay, clients should park their car outside the ZTL, in a commercial garage or the hotel’s own private garage.”
http://en.comune.firenze.it/transport/ztl.htm
It seems that, in your case, the hotel didn’t undertake to forward your license tag number to the appropriate office.
Contact your hotel via email, get proof that on May 18, 2009 you were checking into the hotel and send the information to EMO (infoemo-en@nivi.it).
EMO should then cancel your fines received within the time allowed (2 hours) on your arrival date.
If this “informal appeal” doesn’t work you could always try and explain to EMO that the 360 (not 365) day notification time limit runs from the day of the traffic violation. But, as I’ve already said, they’re stubborn and rather prefer to mislead foreign tourists on this matter.
Or, as a last resort, wait for the official registered notice and appeal to the Prefect of Florence.
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (an appeal template is included) comment.
Al (not Alex)
Hi Al
I have been following this blog since I first got my “notice of payment before the notification” last month, for a driving-in-a-limited-zone infraction in Rome. The ‘offence’ took place on 23rd January 2009 and the official notification finally arrived last week, on the 27th July 2010.
The only other relevent date is that Europcar informed me that they had received notification from the police on 13th July 2009.
So, having read your blog and studied the Italian highway code, I understand that the 360 day rule should run from the date of the offence, not when the police finally get around to processing your details, so in theory I should be ok.
The ‘notification of violation’ says that I have 60 days either to appeal to the Prefect of Rome, OR “directly” to the Justice of the Peace of Rome. So, three questions:
1) Which is best, the Prefect or the JP?
2) Does anyone have any evidence that either of these two offices has any more integrity/efficiency/intelligence than the police force or the EMO? Are they likely to read the appeal at all? If they don’t, then apparently the fine will at least double, and they will add “proceedings fees” of an undisclosed amount!
3) When does THEIR definition of the 360 day limit (ie from when they get your driver details) end – the date they process your notification, or the date you sign for your letter. And when does it begin?
I ask because if Europcar invoiced me from my ‘admin fee’ on the 13/7/09 and I received my notification on 27/7/10, so clearly more than 360 days has passed even between these dates. But will the police claim simply that they received my details a week after Europcar processed the invoice, then sent their notification (actually dated 15/7/10) two weeks before I received it, to be within their 360 days?
I am disgusted at the thought that I should have to pay this fine. It is unfair, it is illegal and it has kept me away from Italy, where I used to be a regular visitor, for the last year an a half. I have no intention to visit Italy again, and certainly not to rent a car, if I can help it.
But equally, I’m sure that the forces that exist to enforce this fine against me are more powerful than any that might help me fight it. I even wrote to 2 different MEPs, and what do they say? Well, one of their underlings writes back to you with the standard line quoted by the EMO.. So should I just pay and avoid increasing fines?
Your in anger and perplexity
dom
Hi Dominic,
This is Al, not Alex (and his blog).
–> Read “Important April 6th 2010 UPDATE” near the top of the page.
Please read also my April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (an appeal template is included) comment and all other comments since then.
You got that right! –> “not when the police … finally … get around to processing your details”.
1) The Prefect!
For the Justice of the Peace since January 1, 2010 you are required to pay 38 € beforehand, …….
2) “integrity/efficiency/intelligence” ?
Would you be so kind as to tell me what do those words mean in this context?
Thanks for the good laugh!
The Prefect of Rome should read your appeal and cancel the fine because clearly the 360 day time limit from the date of the offence has run out.
3) According to THEIR (absolutely wrong) definition:
From the date of receipt of your driver details sent by the car rental company to the date they send you the official notification, the day they give it to the post office.
So yes, good question!
Europcar admin fee –> 13/7/09
But when did the police, EMO receive your driver details?
Europcar could have processed the invoice a week, … after sending your details?
Notification dated 15/7/10,
But more importantly what is the postmark date on the envelope? Is it the same?
This is too close for comfort! Remember that 360 days is NOT one year (365 days)!
I would:
1) Call or send an email to EMO to determine on which date you were identified.
I know for a fact that EMO has already cancelled fines which were sent over 360 days after identification.
2) This is optional!
Tell EMO that you’re “outraged” that an agency mandated by official Authorities should lie so flagrantly to foreign tourists about the 360 day rule!
That they should cancel the fine without further ado! ……………
3) Appeal to the Prefect of Rome WITHIN 60 days of reception of the official notification (see template).
Finally I would never ever pay this invalid fine.
Ultimately I would appeal to the Prefect.
Either he follows the law and cancels the fine or …………. for all I care!
Let us know and if you have more questions….
Al (not Alex)
Hi Al (not Alex)
Thanks for the advice. I have written to EMO, but on the basis of what others have said, I doubt whether they will do anything other than repeat the “360 days from identification of driver” line, and tell me to write to the prefect… if they bother to reply at all.
I have actually phoned the British embassy in Rome and 2 local MEPs (as I said earlier) and they all seem to just blindly buy this lie. In other words, couldn’t care less!
The real question I suppose is, has anybody actually sent anything like the letter template usefully provided earlier in this blog to the prefect and got their fine cancelled? If there were people on this blog queuing up to say that they had got their fines overturned in this way, then I would do it without thinking… As it is, I’m understandably worried that the prefect might not give a monkeys about such claims, however justified, and simply double the fine!
Hi again Alex.
BBC’s Radio 4′s “You & Yours” consumers’ programme broadcast another piece on ZTL fines today, though it didn’t add much to its previous piece (see my 19 March post above) nor the comments in this thread.
You can listen at http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0094hjv, or if that doesn’t work, try http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00t3td5 and click the “Chapter 3″ button.
Keep up the good work!
Hi Pablo,
Thanks for coming back to let us know about the BBC “You & Yours” consumers’ programme. At the end of the day though, there does not seem to be too much which can be done.
If Italy starts sending out the notifications more quickly, then it will become very difficult to challenge these fines. Still, if someone has been caught speeding, he or she should really pay up.
The ZTLs are another matter, as they are not always clearly signposted. However, as you may have noted from Al’s (Al is not me, I’m ‘Alex’) useful comments and observations, appealing these fines is not at all easy.
I hope that one day GPS makers will add ZTL warnings so that people can know they are about to enter one of these zones, but this would mean collaborating with Italian local authorities who a) are strapped for cash b) make money from these fines c) are not always that well organised. a) and b) are connected
As you can see, there does not seem to be much of a solution at the moment. We can only hope that some well-heeled person gets caught and has the resources and will to take this through all of Italy’s courts and to the ECHR, but I doubt really anyone will bother for the sake of what is generally not much more than a few hundred Euros. I know this is a significant sum for many, but would not be for the kind of person who has the weight to take this to court.
One other possibility is that a motoring organisation takes this on board – as such a body will have the finances to push this through the courts. But, as every lawyer (which I’m not) knows, courts can be fickle and it is not easy to know what the outcome of a case will be, unless everything is very clear cut.
I almost forgot to add that Italy’s courts are very slow, so even if someone kicked a case off tomorrow, it might be 10+ years or so before a definitive result is achieved
Hope springs eternal as they say, so you never know.
Kind regards,
Alex (not Al!)
PS Many thanks to Al for all his input
Dominic,
Article 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Violations Notification) is crystal clear for the Judges of the Italian Constitutional Court (the highest judicial body), the lawyers at ADUC (Association for the Rights of Users and Consumers), the Municipality of Arezzo in its “Decision” to outsource the collection of foreign drivers fines to EMO, …
It’s child’s play to understand it if you speak a little Italian and you’re not in bad faith.
I can tell you that the French Consulates in Rome and Florence do not buy this despicable lie and inform correctly French traffic offenders.
As I’ve already said Italians do appeal to the Prefect when their notification time limit has run out.
It’s even easier in the case of foreign traffic offenders because there’s no “identification notion” to eventually meddle things up.
Either you’ve been notified over 360 days after the date of the traffic violation or not!
It would be such a denial of Justice for a Prefect to reject such an appeal.
What are we expected to do from abroad? Go through the entire legal process to be vindicated in such a simple matter?
After an extensive and excruciating ( slight exaggeration
) research, I have put together (and translated) an appeal letter.
This letter template is standard, adapted from similar letters sent by Italian residents to their Prefects.
If I were in your (fortunate) situation I’d definitely send the letter of appeal.
If the Prefect denies my appeal, well …., I’d send him (& EMO) packing and would certainly never pay the fine doubled.
Best!
Al (not Alex)
Hi,
First of all, thank you for the excellent and detailed information on this blog!
I’ve just received formal notification of a speeding offence in Sardinia. The date of the alleged offence was 22 August 2009 and the notification is dated 22 July 2010. I did not previously receive any informal correspondence from EMO or equivalent. I am considering appealing this to the prefect of police on two grounds:
a) As more than 210 days elapsed between the alleged offence and the date of the notice, I have not been notified of the allegation within a reasonable time. If I appeal on these grounds I will refer to Part 1 Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights and case C-224/00.
b) As my surname is spelled incorrectly on the notification, I will argue that it has not been validly served. I will, of course, wait until at least the 17th August before sending this appeal so that any revised notification they send will fall after the 360 day limit. I have checked my correspondence with the hire company and they had the correct details. All other details are correct (though there’s no way I can remember any details of the alleged offence – I don’t even know where I was driving at the time set out in the notice!).
I have a few questions on which I’d very much appreciate any comments:
1) Though I appreciate that you are not in a position to give legal advice, do you have any general comments on my chances of the above being successful?
2) Specifically, do you agree that my proposed application of C-224/00 is right?
3) The 11 May update appears to indicate that the revised wording to the law gives the authorities 60 days to send fines to drivers resident in Italy. You then say that the relevance of case C-224/00 “will be diminished, if not reduced to zero”. Am I right in thinking that the revised highway code has not yet been enacted into law and therefore, even if its effect were retrospective (i.e. it were to apply to offences comitted and/or notified prior to the revision) it would not apply to my case and I would therefore have to rely on the Article 6 and C-224/00 argument.
4) In your 17 February 2010 update you highlighted the words/phrases: “within a reasonable time”, “presumed innocent” and “promptly” in Part 1 Article 6. I am a little concerned, however, that clauses 2 and 3 appear to apply only to criminal offences, while clause 1 appears to also apply to “determination of … civil rights and obligations”. Are speeding and other motoring offences within the definition of criminal offences for the purposes of ECHR? Failing that, do fines for them come within the determination of civil obligations?
5) Does anyone have any experience of failed appeals? If I get a rejection along with a demand for double the amount, would it be worth sending the original amount along with another letter, again referring to ECHR and the disproportionality of being penalised for exercising my statutory right to appeal, and then hope that they don’t bother with the paperwork associated with chasing the balance?
Once again, many thanks!
Gareth
Gareth,
As you rightly pointed out: “you are not in a position to give legal advice”, so these are just my observations:
a) EC -v- Italian Republic, case no C-224/00 dealt with offenders of the Italian highway code who were pulled up by the police “on the spot”.
Italy has complied to judgement of EC with Law 3 February 2003, n. 14.
–> While Italian residents may pay the “reduced fine” within 60 days, EU residents (+ Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway / EEA – European economic area) have to pay that same amount “on the spot”.
So, as you can see, there’s still “different and disproportionate treatment of offenders” but this article of the Italian highway code is now in accordance with EU regulation.
It could be argued that the Italian police are now able to notify European Union residents (through automatic exchange of vehicle and driving licence information) as fast, if not faster
than Italian residents (through their own DVLA).
To have some chance of success you’d probably have to appeal all the way up to the Italian Constitutional Court or even the Court of Justice of the European Communities.
But to my mind what counts is that a Judge of the Peace (not to mention a Prefect) won’t give a rat’s ass about C-224/00, or Part 1 Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights.
b) Surname misspelled !
)
Is it a serious factual error? Is your surname “Smith”, whereas “Smitth” was written on the notification?
This could very well be interpreted as a typing error, a minor error, especially considering that “all other details are correct” and that you’ve signed for the registered notification, thus admitting implicitly that you were the person it was addressed to.
What you should probably have done was refuse to accept the notification stating something like: “nobody by that name at this address” (and not “wrong name of addressee” – how do you know the name is wrong?
Where you were driving at the time, where the traffic violation was committed must be mentioned on the fine.
1), 2) See a), b). It seems to me that you’ve been validly notified.
3) Revisions to Italy’s highway code have finally been approved.
With Law 29 July 2010, n. 120 it is now:
–> 90 days (not 150 any more) (from date of infraction or identification) to notify Italian residents.
–> No change for foreign residents. It’s still 360 days from date of infraction!
The change (150 to 90 days for Italian residents) will apply only for violations committed after this law will enter into force. That means on August 13th.
5) Prefects reject 99% of appeals!
The only result you’ll obtain from appealing on the grounds of ECHR or C-224/00 is likely to be a Prefect in stitches while desperately trying to grab a pre-printed letter of rejection.
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment.
As you know, if your appeal is turned down by the Prefect you‘ll be ordered to pay about double the fine. You then (if you wish) have 30 days to appeal to the Judge of the Peace…
Sending the original amount is pointless! Will they chase the balance? You’d have to ask them! It probably depends on the amount and their “willingness”.
Either you feel that it’s a “legitimate” fine and you want … “peace of mind” or you’re not intimidated by repeated notifications and you’ll wait peacefully for mutual recognition of financial penalties, including those related to road traffic offences and for cross-border enforcement of traffic offences in the EU to be really effective.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2008/sep/13/motoring.consumeraffairs
http://europeanjournal.typepad.com/my_weblog/2010/07/eu-road-safety-action-plan.html
Al (not Alex)
Hi Gareth,
Can I “butt in” to Al (not Alex)’s excellent response, as you refer to some ECHR issues mentioned in my 7 Mar post quoted in the 17 Feb Important Update near the top of this thread? I too am not a lawyer, so you should take professional advice before acting on this.
Firstly, be careful not to confuse Art.6 of ECHR with Art.6 of the EC Treaty, on which case C-224/00 was based. Although both are part of EU legislation, they are not otherwise connected. The first is about fair treatment under Human Rights legislation, whereas the second is about discrimination grounded on nationality (to which ECHR Pt.1 Art.14 also applies). Mentioning them together would only befuddle the authorities and/or judge/s. You can challenge liability under either ECHR Pt.1 Art.6 or case C-224/00 (which I think is still valid in principle), but not both at once.
You ask if speeding & other motoring offences are criminal offences. I’m not familiar with Italian legal codes, so don’t know if such contraventions are “criminal” – perhaps Al (not Alex) can help here. The only parallel I know of in UK law is whether such issues are dealt with in the criminal or civil justice system. For example, speeding offences are pursued in the magistrates court, while Congestion Zone and most parking offences are pursued in civil courts (though under statutory rules & procedures). Al (not Alex) says penalties can be appealed to a Prefect or Justice/Judge of the Peace (or whatever they’re called). I don’t know if a Prefect is a criminal law officer, but I would guess a JP probably is, thus indicating that such offences are criminal – over to Al (not Alex) for clarification.
Of course, if they are actually civil “offences”, then you have absolutely no obligation to pay unless & until the allegation has been proved in court and the claimant awarded a court order. In that case, Ch.II Art.2 of the Brussels Regulation (Council Regulation (EC) 44/2001) requires a defendant in such a civil action to be sued in his country of domicile, so the Italian authority would have to send its legal team to your local civil court and prove its case under your country’s procedures and standards of evidence & proof. In the UK, if the case is proved and you don’t pay within a month the unsatisfied County Court Judgement will be registered with Credit Reference Agencies, which could then affect your credit status and hence your ability to obtain credit in the UK.
As for sending money with an appeal, I’m with Al (not Alex) – I’ll bet that’s the last you’d see or hear of it: having got your money, what incentive do they have to return it, and why would they allow your appeal? Anyhow, the “disproportionality” bit refers to different treatment due to nationality, not penalties for exercising your rights.
I’d say forget the whole thing and stop worrying. If they chase you, start by asking for evidence as suggested in my 7 Mar post.
Best o’luck!
PabloUK (not Al or Alex)
Hi PabloUK & Gareth,
In Italy the only motoring offences which are criminal are:
- Setting up and/or participating in unauthorised motor vehicle races (Art 9, 9bis & 9 ter Highway Code),
- Driving while under the influence of alcohol (Art 186),
(Upwards of 0,8 g/l but the legal limit is 0,5 g/l)
- Driving while under the influence of drugs (Art 187),
- “Hit and Run” – Failure to stop and render aid to injured parties in case of accidents involving personal injury (Art 189).
The Prefetto is the State’s representative in a province.
You lodge an appeal with a Prefect only if you’re practically certain it’ll result in a positive outcome (notification time limit has run out, serious factual error).
For instance appealing against a ZTL fine(s) is a waste of time. The Prefect’s underling will just make sure that the offence(s) has really been committed before rejecting your appeal.
The Giudice di Pace ( JP, Justice of the Peace – you’re right, one must say “Justice” – English is not my mother tongue as you may have surmised
) is a first instance Court. The JP (4700 in Italy) is an honorary magistrate holding office for 4 years and is responsible for administering:
- Civil justice: dealing with cases of relatively low financial value,
- Criminal justice: dealing with cases of low importance.
The standard procedure is to appeal to a Justice of the Peace.
But you must attend the hearing (or get someone to attend, preferably a lawyer). And since the 1st of January 2010 you are required to pay 38 €; they don’t tell you how to go about doing this because it has not been anticipated for residents abroad.
In the end you loose the appeal, not on merit, but because you didn’t pay the 38€ and/or you were unable to attend the hearing! ………………
Winning an appeal is no easy task for Italian residents and a nearly impossible proposition for residents abroad.
For any chance of success, you’d have to take issues such as Art 6 ECHR or C-224/0 through all of Italy’s courts and… beyond.
Al (not Alex)
Hi Al (not Alex)
By “For instance appealing against a ZTL fine(s) is a waste of time. The Prefect’s underling will just make sure that the offence(s) has really been committed before rejecting your appeal.”, you presumably mean to exclude appeals made on the grounds that the time limit of 360 days has expired?
Hi Dominic,
Sure, that’s what I mean !
That sentence was referring to ZTL fine(s) validly (in time) notified to the offender.
I wrote in that same comment: “You lodge an appeal with a Prefect only if you’re practically certain it’ll result in a positive outcome (notification time limit has run out, serious factual error).”
Whether you’ve been fined for speeding, ZTL, …, is not relevant. You present the appeal only on the grounds that the 360 day notification time limit from the date the offence was committed has run out.
In your case, if the matter can’t be resolved with EMO, I would really take the trouble to send the appeal letter. It’s likely to be the last you’ll hear of this fine unless you receive a letter from the Prefect of Rome confirming the cancellation of the fine.
Do not let the “60 days from reception of the official notification” go by before sending the appeal letter.
Al (not Alex)
Hi Al (not Alex)
Thanks for the info about criminal -v- civil offences. I must say I’m very surprised that so few motoring offences are criminal.
Before deciding whether to accept or challenge the penalty, I think Gareth should firstly ask the authority to clarify if the offence is criminal or civil. Then, it seems to me he has three choices:
- If the offence is “criminal” he can rely on the ECHR defence or case C-224/0, as appropriate;
- If not, he can ignore all payment requests until served with a claim issued by his local civil court, if in the EU. Then demand evidence as suggested in my 7 Mar post, to verify that:
– the restriction was legally valid,
– that it applied at the time of alleged infringement, and
– that he actually infringed it;
- Pay up.
Citizens of Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland can rely on the Lugano Convention, which has the same effect as the Brussels Regulation does in the EU. Citizens of other countries should ask their local civil court about any similar agreements with Italy.
Beware that the Brussels Regulation and Lugano Convention both allow an EU claimant to enforce an uncontested civil court judgment as if it were given in the defendant’s country. However, the defendant can appeal if not properly notified of the claim or if other rules & procedures were not followed, or due to erroneous jurisdiction.
Guys,
I received letters from EMO stating about fines from various Italian cities about a year ago. Fines date back to September 2008 (almost two years already). Till the moment only two or three scaring remainding letters about doubling the amount of the fines and possibility of legal procedures (I am not an EU citizen).
Has anyone been not paying the fines longer?
Best regards, Sid
Sid,
It’s not clear from reading your post if you ever received any of these letters (fines) by registered mail?
“Has anyone been not paying the fines longer?”: Yes, of course!
Al (not Alex)
I too have felt the wrath of the Italian traffic violation benevolent fund. Congratulations on the blog it’s excellent.
My fines are from Alghero in Sardinia as opposed to Pisa but the fines and procedures seem to be the same for all Italy.
I received 4 fines of €115.90 for driving in a restricted traffic area on four occasion within the space of a couple of days. Like just about everyone else I was blissfully unaware that I was dicing with the law.
I would appreciate it if someone could tell me in bullet points the procedure the authorities follow if fines are not paid.
So far I have received:
# 4 letters notifying that I should pay the administrative sanction relating to the offences. These came 7 months after the offences.
# 2 registered letters saying I am guilty of the offence (I expect 2 more to arrive soon) stating I have 60 days to pay or each fine will be increase from €115.90 to €189.90. I also have 60 days to appeal. These letters arrived 15 months after the offence.
So if I fail to pay these fines within 60 days what is the next and subsequent steps the authorities will take.
Money is tight at the moment and coughing up €460 would be very painful for me right now.
Hi “Will Do Jail Time”,
If you’ve read this “excellent blog” (or at least part of it) you know that there’s a 360 day time limit from the date of the offence to notify residents abroad.
In your case the 360 day time limit has clearly (15 months) run out and I would “strongly” advise you to send a letter of appeal to the Prefect.
To avoid repeated notifications ( and possibly jail time
) will cost you one (or two) registered letter(s) with proof of receipt to Sardinia and a little time to copy/paste the appeal template included in April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment.
The 4 letters you received are informal notices (Notice of payment before notification).
The (first) two registered letters are Official Notifications (violation of the Highway Code notice).
Alghero is in the province of Sassari. So, (and I believe this is mentioned in the registered letters) you must address your letter: “Al Prefetto di Sassari”.
The address is: Piazza d’Italia 31, 07100 Sassari.
Be sure to follow the procedure clearly outlined and do not let the “60 days from reception of the official notification” go by before sending the appeal letter.
Read comments on April 29, 2010 at 12:56 am, April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am, July 9, 2010 at 9:19 am and (if possible) all other comments since May.
Al (not Alex)
Thanks for the response Al. i wasn’t sure if it was 360 days to the receipt of the “Notice of payment before notification”. As it is a 360 day limit to when the registered letters arrive I will certainly make an appeal.
Thank’s
It looks like I might have avoided a week in the can.
Hi Al
In your post on 29 April 2.32am you wrote the following:
“I can not guarantee 100% that a Prefect might not reject a legitimate (> 360 days, within 60 days, registered mail, in Italian) appeal!
Because a Prefect might give a casual glance at an appeal request, grab a pre-printed letter and reject the appeal.
Because rejecting is easier, the appeal can still be “forwarded” to the Judge of the Peace within 30 days.
BUT this is a straightforward decision! Time limit has run out!
Prefects do reject 99% of appeals but really should NOT in such a case. Italians do appeal to the Prefect when their notification time limit has run out.”
I just want to clarify the procedure in very basic terms:
1) Complete the the appeal letter in Italian as per the letter template you posted on 29 April 2010.
2) Send the letter to the Prefect by registered post and the registered letter must provide proof the Prefect received the letter.
3) The Prefect adjudicates on the appeal and will most likely turn down the appeal.
4) If the Prefect turns down the appeal he must send his decision to the Judge of the Peace within 30 days.
5) Here I am a little unclear – Does the Judge of the Peace go against the Prefects decisions and wipe out the fines based on the 360 day rule?
Maybe I am a bit cynical but I can’t foresee the Judge of the Peace wiping out these fines and it would not surprise me if they would remain on the Italian system unpaid.
Has anybody every received notification that their fine has been wiped from the slate based on appeal?
I certainly agree with your approach Al in that it is good to follow procedure in the event that these fines might raise their head at an inopportune time in the future. Having a decision against me for unpaid fines is not something I would want to carry with me.
Thanks for your help.
Hi “Will Do Jail Time”,
1) Yes!
If I were you I would send one letter of appeal for the first 2 registered letters (fines), or for the four fines, depending on when you receive the last 2 registered letters.
The important thing, naturally, is to abide by the “60 day rule from reception….”
Modifications (plural for 2+ tickets!) in caps:
“Il sottoscritto”
“Oggetto: ricorso contro multE notificatE…”
“premesso che in data 1ST DATE, 2ND DATE, …, ha ricevuto I verbalI di accertamento di violazione al codice della strada n. N° 1ST FINE, N° 2ND FINE, …, fa notare che lE notificHE deGLI stessI SONO avvenutE oltre 360 giorni daI fattI, …….”
“Chiede che I provvedimentI vengaNO annullatI”
“Allega: fotocopiE deI verbalI notificatI”
Do not forget to enclose readable copies of the fines.
2) Yes!
Registered letter WITH proof of receipt!
3) Well, no! The Prefect’s underling should absolutely not reject your appeal!
! So don’t expect me to give you a 100% guarantee!
Your official notifications are dated (I expect) July/August 2010, well over 360 days after the date of the traffic violation.
Either you’ve been notified over 360 days after the date of the offence or not!
As I said this should be a straightforward decision. But this is Italy
I can only assure you that this is the standard procedure and that Italians do appeal to the Prefect in such a case.
4) No! If the Prefect turns down the appeal you’ll be ordered to pay roughly double the fine (the €189.90 you mentioned in your first post + procedural costs).
Then you can appeal against his “injunction” to the Justice of the Peace within (actually) 60 days for residents abroad, 30 for Italian residents (Art. 205). (That is what I meant by “forwarded”)
5) Of course a Justice of the Peace can overrule the Prefect’s decision.
But this is idle talk.
In my opinion after having appealed to the Prefect you’d have made every conceivable effort to follow the Italian procedure.
As I’ve already written: “It would be such a denial of justice for a Prefect to reject such an appeal. What are we expected to do from abroad? Go through the entire legal process to be vindicated in such a simple matter?”
I can’t see any significant difference between not paying your fines and having the Prefect turn down your appeal.
You have three options:
- Do nothing (which is always a possibility),
- Pay the reduced amount within the time limit,
- Take advantage of being fortunate enough that your fines were sent over 360 days… and take the trouble to follow procedure and write that appeal letter to the Prefect.
Should the Prefect deny the appeal, ….
The idea of being a “sucker” doesn’t appeal to me.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
P.S./ I trust your name is appropriate.
wow-
apparently, in our process of returning the rental car in rome [train station], and being utterly w/o directions as to how to do so]-we have racked up two different fines, for 25 euro plu ssome 5 uero fee on top. our credit card was charged(over 3 months after we returned home to California), and now two weeks later, we finally get bills from Hertz (which I suspect they ONLY sent b/c we denied the charged to our cc company).
The Hertz letters are in Italian-I have no clue what the ‘infaction was’-only that it had to have been while we were figuring out how to return the rental car. Any suggestions from anyone? This was rush hour on a Friday, and we found we had to go round a nd round to get into a parking garage to return our car. We have received no notice from the Italian police [Municipal Roma’ or whateve ryou call it)
Should we tell Hertz they are not authorized to charge our card, and that we need proof of the infaction? Closing the credit card we used is not an option in this case-also b/c they have already chaged the card and we filed the appeal with them.
A trip to Italy: The gift that keeps on….scr*wing you out of Euros. LOL
Frankly, our Ttrip was underwhelming. Overated and overpriced-that’s how I saw Italy, and I saw 2/3 of it from Puglia up thru Tuscany. I am not impresssed, and have NO interest in returning to Italy at any time in my life. Too many other fish in the sea. Even the food and wine did not impress. And Rome is totally overrated. But Italians are wonderful people!
Rant aside-I was looking online to translate this info, and came up with this blog-thanks for the info.
Irm,
Italy overrated ?
Not bloody (or should I select an other word more commonly used in the US) able to find decent food and wine in Italy?
Perhaps I’d better say no more!
Luckily you admit to be “ranting”! I’m sure you won’t let a couple of fines get the better of your judgment!
Rant aside
– The 25€ (+ 5€ – 20% VAT) charge is NOT the fine.
It’s an “admin fee” from Hertz following a request from the Italian police to obtain the personal data of the car renter who committed the traffic violation.
When you signed the rental contract you surely agreed to pay for the admin charge. Read the small print.
You’ll receive over the next few weeks (months) the actual fine from EMO (http://www.emo.nivi.it/).
EMO is a collection agency officially mandated by an ever increasing number of Italian Municipalities to collect fines from foreign drivers.
While you were attempting to return your rental car you probably entered a ZTL (Zona a Traffico Limitato – Restricted traffic zone). Scroll down this page.
If you “have NO interest in returning to Italy at any time in my life”, ………………..
Al (not Alex)
ps-the fine is for verbale fine on line and the ‘fine’ itself is only for 5 eruros! The ‘spese administrative’ is 25 euro on top. Can anyone assist in clarifying? I am very grateful!
well, i have come across this info from http://www.complaintsboard.com :
Same amount 30E, Hertz also, from March this year….so I’m going with this for my particular case
Comments Sort by: Date | Rating
178 days ago by mercier 0 Votes
I had the same. I received a bill from Hertz Italia for 30 Eur stating Verbale fine on line issued by Novate Milanese. The problem is that I was driving from Bologna Airport to Parma…not at all around Novate Milanese.
What happened to you next ?
53 days ago by BuckinghamPA 0 Votes
Same thing happened to me in march. This is a total fraud. I contacted American Express and, without batting an eye, took the charge off my credit card. Said it was one of the allowable charges to be reversed. My only theory is that they have seen this time and again from Hertz Italia. Must be a “gentlemens handshake” with Italian polizia and Hertz
Irm,
As you will have seen from earlier posts in this thread, many others (including me – see my 28 Feb post) have had the same problem. Al (not Alex) is correct – these are NOT fines, just Hertz’s charges (including sales tax, NOT a fine) for giving the hirer’s personal data to the Roman municipal police. As he says, the rental Terms & Conditions probably allow that when you commit a traffic offence.
Ask Hertz to cancel the charges on the ground that you have not been officially notified of any offence or related fine. If that doesn’t work, go back to your your credit card issuer and ask it to reverse the charges as unsubstantiated because:
* Hertz has not:
– identified the rental term/s and/or condition/s under which it claims payment
– supplied any evidence of the “administrative expenses” claimed, how they were calculated or
– where, when and/or how they were incurred.
* Neither Hertz nor Comune di Roma has supplied any evidence:
– of the nature of the supposed traffic violations
– that the alleged violations are legally valid
– that the alleged violations actually occurred
– of the penalties applicable for the alleged violations
– that any such penalties have been imposed
– that you are liable for any such penalties.
Point out that if a “fine” is suspect or the allegation not proved, any associated fees & charges must therefore be equally invalid.
Any advice for this situation? I have a disabled parking permit, and a friend visiting from the states was using my car, also to drive me places. He accidentally parked in someone else’s reserved handicapped space: there were 3, and not being familiar with the ins and outs of Italian disabled parking he chose the the only one that was an individual space, and the car was ticketed. I guess legally I have to send in his driver’s license etc. as the driver at the time of the infraction, but will this mean that he gets the fine in the States? Is there any way I can keep this from happening? It seems so stupid. Thanks for your help.
Misty,
Advice given with no guarantee!
This is an unusual situation!
At present you have only the ticket found on the windscreen?
Is the traffic violation number mentioned?
I had a look at the Italian Highway Code.
For Art. 188,4 the fine is 78€ and … 2 points are deducted from the driver’s license.
For Art. 188,5 the fine is 38€.
I think (but I’m not sure) that Art. 188,5 should apply in your case.
So if it’s Art. 188,4 you’ll be asked to give the driver’s details.
Will they send the fine in the States? Presumably. But no point deduction!
If it’s Art. 188,5 I would naturally pay the 38€ fine.
Make sure that there’s no point deduction.
Al (not Alex)
Hi Alex,
I wonder if you could take the time to confirm that I have read everything correctly on your sight as the fear of a fine getting doubled is worrying. Today I received via registered post a notice of prosecutin for a restricted zone (230810) The notice tells me an offence was committed on 240609!!! Which is obviously a long time ago and well over the 360 day time frame. My question is in two parts. a) As its over the limit am I right in assuming an appeal will be successful, has anyone confirmed this is the case? b) I and one other were insured and as the time frame is so huge we cannot remember who was driving. In this country you cannot prosecute if you dont know who the driver is. Is this a legitimate way around it? Id like to also say we did not commit this offence willfully. The charge is 119 euros but I feel I have grounds to appeal. Many thanks Shawn
Shawn,
a) You are perfectly right in assuming an appeal will be successful!
Although collection agencies such as EMO mislead foreign tourists deliberately, Article 201,1 of the Italian Highway Code (Violations Notification) states very clearly that the 360 day time limit runs from the day of the offence.
“Has anyone confirmed this is the case?” This is still pretty new!
People who sent the appeal letter have yet to receive a response. A Prefect has up to 360 days to inform you of his decision, if he ever does.
b) Art 196,1 (Solidarity principle) states that as owner of your (private) vehicle, or as holder of the rental agreement of the vehicle, you are considered to be jointly liable with the author of the traffic violation for the payment of the fine.
(I believe Art 196 is mentioned in your registered letter)
You can always sue your wife, friend,… to recover the amount of the fine.
Identifying the driver is relevant when points are deducted from the driver’s license. If the owner doesn’t give the driver’s details he’s subjected to a 263€ (up to 1050€) fine. (Art 126-bis)
I don’t know who sent you the fine. You can email demanding that your fine be cancelled on the grounds of Art 201.
If this “informal appeal” doesn’t work I would absolutely send, within 60 days, the appeal letter to the Prefect.
Read April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am (an appeal template is included), August 21, 2010 at 9:58 pm and scroll down through the comments since May.
Al (not Alex)
Just another piece fo the story. We received four fines in June from a trip in November 08. I emailed back and forth with the EMO and was able to get two of them discarded as they were on days that we checked into our hotel. I ended up ignoring the other two, as they would not understand that we were loading our luggage for a 3 AM departure the next day.
Fast forward to last week when I get a call from Cedar Financial, a debt collection agency in California. They say I need to pay the fines within thirty days or my name will be “flagged” and I may have to deal with the fines in customs if I enter Italy or the EU again. I’m tempted to jsut pay them ($660 US) and get it over with, but I am also thinking that I may risk not paying them. I have also tried to get back in touch with my hotel in Florence to get an email saying we “checked out” on the day of the fines.
Another option is offering the debt collection company that I will pay for one, since they were 10 minutes apart. He did assure me that NOTHING will be reported on my credit history either way.
In my opinion, the Florence police, and then the EMO have gone a long way to collect these fines, so maybe they mean business. I guess I made a mistake by contacting the EMO in the first place, as they now have all of my email correspondance. I guess that’s what you get for trying to do things the right way.
jd,
As you know the ZTL (restricted traffic zone) permits in Florence are issued for a maximum of two hours for baggage transport purposes and, therefore, only on the arrival and departure dates.
So, strictly speaking, you didn’t load your luggage within the allotted time frame.
Even though they could have been a little lenient considering your 3am departure the next day.
It’s shameful the way these Italian municipalities “hand out” those multiple ZTL fines (within a short time frame).
If June 2010 was the first time you received these fines via registered mail, they were invalid because they were sent over 360 days after the day of the traffic violation.
Nevertheless, you still had to dispute them and appeal to the Prefect within 60 days from reception of the official notification.
Emo will continue dishing invalid fines out without so much as blinking an eye because there’s a 35% commission at stake, many will pay up out of fear, peace of mind, … and they know that it’s rather difficult for foreigners to challenge the legality of these fines.
I’m a little surprised that the two remaining fines were “sold” that quickly to a debt collection agency.
In my opinion, the “name flagged…” matter is an empty threat from Cedar Financial!
Debt collection agencies are very skilled at this “game”.
Now that those two fines are in the hands of Cedar Financial, they won’t care about any letter from a hotel in Florence. Only EMO (or the Florence municipal police) could have cancelled them.
And lastly, you did very well to contact Emo and have your first two fines cancelled. A pity you didn’t know about the 360 day notifying time limit for the other two.
Al (not Alex)
Hi Al-
Thanks for the reply. I should have been more clear, we did get them first in June of 2009, so they were within the 365 days. The more I think about it after talking with him, I think we may just not pay them. I agree that the customs threat seems empty, but at first when they got ahold of me I was a bit rattled I must admit. I think I’m going to wait it out and if they call back, ask them for evidence that they are indeed working with the EMO.
Thanks-
Hello again Al
I think I have managed to get my local MP’s office interested in this problem. So, as far as you know, would a British MP be able to appeal to the Prefect of Rome on my behalf, to overturn a fine that has passed its 360 day time limit, or do I have to do it myself?
I assume that an MP’s letter will stand more chance of being read than my own.
Cheers
Hi again Dominic,
No luck with EMO? Did they at least reply?
As far as I know,…..?
Well, as far as I know, I’d say that you were the one driving through a ZTL in Rome in January 2009. Or, at least, you were the holder of the rental agreement.
This is why you received the fine and you’re the one who must appeal.
(Furthermore I have my doubts that the Prefect’s underling would be overly impressed by a British MP’s letter)
Of course your letter of appeal will be read!
Italian Prefects receive letters of appeal daily, a number of them for notification time limit overrun.
And I wouldn’t worry if I had to wait quite a while for proof of receipt.
Copy/paste the appeal template and send your registered letter with proof of receipt to:
Al Sig. Prefetto di Roma
Prefettura di Roma
via IV Novembre 119/A
00187 Roma
Best,
Al (not Alex)
I emailed the EMO twice – no reply. Ba*****s!!
Hi Al
i just received a fine from the Pisa police for an infringement on 01/06/2009 for entering the restricted traffic zone.Any chance of obtaining the appeal template letter and who/where to send it to in Pisa
many thanks
Hi Bruce,
If the fine is a “Notice of payment before notification” sent via normal post, you can’t yet lodge an appeal.
If the fine is headed “Violation of the Highway Code Notice” and has been sent via registered mail, then it’s the Official Notification which mentions, among other things, that you can appeal to the Prefect of … or the Justice of the Peace of … within 60 days …
So, if this is the Official Notification, copy/paste the appeal template and send your registered letter of appeal with proof of receipt to:
Al Sig. Prefetto di Pisa
Prefettura di Pisa
Piazza Mazzini 7
56100 PISA
Do not forget to enclose a readable copy of the Official Notification .
Read carefully April 29, 2010 at 2:32 am comment where you’ll find the appeal template.
And (if possible) scroll down through the comments since May.
Best,
Al (not Alex)
Hi Al
Thanks Al and Alex for the very useful information on this page.
Today I received via registered post a notice of Infringement of the Italian Highway Code (the date of the notice was 5 August 2010). The offence relates to circulating in a restricted travel zone in Pisa on 11 April 2009. Clearly this exceeds the 360 day rule. I am a UK resident as was travelling in Pisa.
I intend to appeal The Prefect of Pisa (using the template on the post dated April 29 and the address on the 1 September post) on the basis of time limits. However, I am not clear whether the appeal needs to be made in Italian. The Notice expressly says that if you appeal to a Justice of the Peace, the appeal needs to be made in Italian. However, when referring to the option about appealing to the Prefect, there is nothing in the Notice about the language of the appeal. Is this intentional? In other words, does the absence of the express wording relating to the Italian language in respect of appeals to the Prefect, mean that the appeal can be written in English? It is slightly confusing as the Notice makes it clear that appeals to the Justice of Peace must be in Italian but silent in relation to appeals to the Prefect.
Hi Sam,
You gave Alex’s page on “Speeding, and other traffic fines in Italy” a thorough read. (y)
Nothing much to add!
Is it intentional that the language of the appeal to the Prefect is not specifically stated in the notice of infringement you received? No, certainly not!
All appeals must be made in Italian!
Furthermore, with regard to appeals to Pisa Authorities, the writing in the letter should lean at an angle of 5.5°!
Do not forget to send the appeal letter in … Italian and within 60 days of receipt of the official notice and to enclose a readable copy of the Notice of Infringement.
Do not be concerned if you never receive a reply from the Prefect.
As you know a Prefect has up to 360 days to give you an answer.
After 360 days without reply the appeal is deemed to be accepted.
Best,
Al (not Alex)